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      02-23-2012, 02:13 PM   #23
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      02-23-2012, 02:16 PM   #24
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      02-23-2012, 02:23 PM   #25
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Structural carbon fiber can be repaired in most cases very similar to the way fiberglass is repaired when damaged. However, just like a steel or aluminum chassis there are limits to possible repair....
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      02-23-2012, 02:24 PM   #26
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Did anyone else open this thread thinking that BMW was going to make keys out of carbon fiber?? I'm ready for this day to be over!
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      02-23-2012, 02:30 PM   #27
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It appears we are headed towards an era of unbelievably expensive vehicles for the sake of meeting unrealistic efficiency standards all based on the false religious belief that carbon dioxide is a pollutant.
Quote of the year!!!
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      02-23-2012, 02:37 PM   #28
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It appears we are headed towards an era of unbelievably expensive vehicles for the sake of meeting unrealistic efficiency standards all based on the false religious belief that carbon dioxide is a pollutant.
While I don't necessarily agree with you on all of that, there is a definitely a good point being made here.

The fact is that the automotive industry is being legislated into a highly regulated, optimally functioning machine, while other industries are left alone to continue in their traditional "un-green" fashion. As I recall, automobiles contribute only about 20% of all greenhouse gases, yet the sources of the other 80% are not facing nearly as much scrutiny. In short, we are spending a lot of money optimizing the wrong part of the infrastructure. You can build a zero emissions car that uses no oil at all, but if you are still powering everything else - the machines to obtain the raw materials; the factories that turn those materials into parts; the boats, trucks, and trains responsible for the transportation of those materials; and the assembly plants that build the car - with unsustainable energy sources, then you are not really solving any problem.

A lightweight car is great because it will make for a more efficient car. But we can make a factory or power plant more efficient without having to worry about making it lightweight to begin with. Why not start there?
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      02-23-2012, 02:38 PM   #29
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Did anyone else open this thread thinking that BMW was going to make keys out of carbon fiber?? I'm ready for this day to be over!
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      02-23-2012, 02:54 PM   #30
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Good thought, but I have a hard time believing that in 20 years time, cars will be made out of CF as the primary resource.

Car insurance will skyrocket if that were the case, and people will be priced out of being able to drive.
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      02-23-2012, 03:06 PM   #31
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      02-23-2012, 03:15 PM   #32
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It appears we are headed towards an era of unbelievably expensive vehicles for the sake of meeting unrealistic efficiency standards all based on the false religious belief that carbon dioxide is a pollutant.
+1
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      02-23-2012, 03:16 PM   #33
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Structural carbon fiber can be repaired in most cases very similar to the way fiberglass is repaired when damaged.
Sure, I understand that it can be done. But - unlike fiberglass - carbon fiber is woven. I think of fixing carbon fiber like fixing a damaged clothing garment. You can do it of course, but you typically have to mend it with a patch of some sort, and as a result it usually does not look or feel like new again. With fiber glass, its more like fixing a chip in a windshield - you just fill it in and no one is the wiser (well maybe it isn't quite that simple, but you see what I mean).

With steel or aluminum I can weld two foot-long pieces together and have the result be as strong as one equivalent-thickness two-foot-long piece. Even with fiber glass, I can fuse two pieces together and have something as rigid as the original. But I don't think the same is true for carbon fiber. If it were, then instead of producing huge sheets of the material to create large parts, they could just patch a bunch of smaller squares of it together like a quilt or something. There's obviously a reason why they don't do it that way - the rigidity of the part is largely dependent one continuous woven sheet of material.

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However, just like a steel or aluminum chassis there are limits to possible repair....
With metal repair work, the limit is usually based upon cost. For cases where there is sufficient motivation, just about any steel part can be fixed (within reason - a fire would make it almost impossible, as would a near complete destruction of the part in a horrific accident or perhaps an explosion). Consider classic cars, for example. Even when left to rot for years, they are typically salvageable and restoreable (incidentally that's a big advantage of CFRP - no rust). Or, if someone wrecks their rare Ferrari GTO on a track, they will more than likely get it back going again some way or another.
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      02-23-2012, 03:19 PM   #34
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The cost of CF will drop because it will be massively produced. It is now being used in racing car manufacturing in USA by Panoz for their 2012 ALMS program.
There is a new material called REAMS (Recyclable, Energy Absorbing, Matrix, System), which is lighter, cheaper & easier to produce. I wonder if ppl at BMW had actually considered it. Well, we'll probably never know. But here is a link http://www.highcroftracing.com/news/...-panoz-qa.html
++!

...this sounds almost too good to be true


“With a heavy enough impact, carbon fiber will shatter, with other materials you end up with a heavy dent or crease, but with REAMS you can apply some heat from a heat gun or even a hair dryer and you can repair it.


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      02-23-2012, 03:27 PM   #35
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[quote=mkoesel;11407162]While I don't necessarily agree with you on all of that, there is a definitely a good point being made here.

The fact is that the automotive industry is being legislated into a highly regulated, optimally functioning machine, while other industries are left alone to continue in their traditional "un-green" fashion. As I recall, automobiles contribute only about 20% of all greenhouse gases, yet the sources of the other 80% are not facing nearly as much scrutiny. In short, we are spending a lot of money optimizing the wrong part of the infrastructure. You can build a zero emissions car that uses no oil at all, but if you are still powering everything else - the machines to obtain the raw materials; the factories that turn those materials into parts; the boats, trucks, and trains responsible for the transportation of those materials; and the assembly plants that build the car - with unsustainable energy sources, then you are not really solving any problem.


Very, Very well stated. The trick in all industry on the eco front is to push the burden of the ecological damage on the consumer to induce guilt, then offer a "solution" in buying their products.... this is not regarding BMW specifically but those responsible for the overwhelming % of polluting are not consumers ~Frost
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      02-23-2012, 03:29 PM   #36
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I imagine the cost to repair a megcity car from an accident is going to be astronomical.
You get what you pay for

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      02-23-2012, 03:40 PM   #37
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interesting.... the company that makes REAMS is located where.....


"Milliken & Company, located in Spartanburg, South Carolina"
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      02-23-2012, 04:13 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
While I don't necessarily agree with you on all of that, there is a definitely a good point being made here.

The fact is that the automotive industry is being legislated into a highly regulated, optimally functioning machine, while other industries are left alone to continue in their traditional "un-green" fashion. As I recall, automobiles contribute only about 20% of all greenhouse gases, yet the sources of the other 80% are not facing nearly as much scrutiny. In short, we are spending a lot of money optimizing the wrong part of the infrastructure. You can build a zero emissions car that uses no oil at all, but if you are still powering everything else - the machines to obtain the raw materials; the factories that turn those materials into parts; the boats, trucks, and trains responsible for the transportation of those materials; and the assembly plants that build the car - with unsustainable energy sources, then you are not really solving any problem.

A lightweight car is great because it will make for a more efficient car. But we can make a factory or power plant more efficient without having to worry about making it lightweight to begin with. Why not start there?
Very interesting outlook you have that has touched on some important key points about the "going Green" concept. Well said indeed.
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      02-23-2012, 04:31 PM   #39
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[quote=Frosty;11407547]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
While I don't necessarily agree with you on all of that, there is a definitely a good point being made here.

The fact is that the automotive industry is being legislated into a highly regulated, optimally functioning machine, while other industries are left alone to continue in their traditional "un-green" fashion. As I recall, automobiles contribute only about 20% of all greenhouse gases, yet the sources of the other 80% are not facing nearly as much scrutiny. In short, we are spending a lot of money optimizing the wrong part of the infrastructure. You can build a zero emissions car that uses no oil at all, but if you are still powering everything else - the machines to obtain the raw materials; the factories that turn those materials into parts; the boats, trucks, and trains responsible for the transportation of those materials; and the assembly plants that build the car - with unsustainable energy sources, then you are not really solving any problem.


Very, Very well stated. The trick in all industry on the eco front is to push the burden of the ecological damage on the consumer to induce guilt, then offer a "solution" in buying their products.... this is not regarding BMW specifically but those responsible for the overwhelming % of polluting are not consumers ~Frost
Frost makes an excellent point. Overall, the "industry" is pushing the responsiblity/guilt on the consumer, instead of fixing the problem at the stem, because they know that many of the consumers will pay the price to say they are doing their part for a cleaner Earth and securing their own peace of mind at the same time.

This is a sad process, but such is life. Most corparations, organizations and Governments continue and have been operating in this manner since way before any of us have been born, lol
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      02-23-2012, 05:03 PM   #40
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Because the next generation of 7er will sustain not only BMW's but also the next generation of Rolls-Royce Phantom and Ghost and their relevant variants.
BMW have instigated a specific structure that can not only be decreased and increased depending on what model as will the modular chassis.

The structure is mainly aluminium but features a mix of press-hardened steel and CFRP at the non-load bearing structural elements. The resulting weight-loss is highly significant against the current F01 7er. The modular chassis is also now aluminium-intensive for the maximum 50/50 weight distribution.

Because of the investment eventually the modular structural skeleton will also feature as the range goes from model to model, allowing each BMW to become lighter than todays models.

Because of BMW's significant investment into CFRP manufacturing and production in mass volume. This is BMW's advantage over its competitors.
CFRP (for BMW) will be more widespread and cost effective to use on a wide variety of next generation models.

The first mainstream BMW to use CFRP panels as outer "skins" will be the next generation 7er. In which to take advantage of the growth of luxury cars in the second half of the decade will expand it's model base. With BMW admitting that the 7er cannot just do it alone by itself at the top end of the BMW range and envisions further variants. They key being a possible return to the CS Concept - A BMW that embodied luxury , sportiness and exclusivity over a conventional Coupe which BMW felt was no longer needed, given the 6er and its ability to fill the role of the large BMW Coupe. Although the BMW 6er Gran Coupe arose from the wreckage of the CS Concept. BMW still envisions a four door Coupe flagship to sit above the Gran Coupe.

With the BMW 7er being the flagship and the incubator for technology.
The interior takes cues from the BMWi8 and will feature the largest fixed navigation monitor alongside some very advanced ConnectedDrive features.
Such as intensive Head-up display for driver and passenger and dashboard touchpad. If you think the Vision ConnectedDrive is just science-fiction?
Then in 2015 you will see the possibilities.

With the 7er, BMW are aiming that the bootlid , bonnet , doorskins and roof panel will be CFRP giving BMW a main advantage in the use of CFRP in a luxury car. Because the BMWi incubator will also bring CFRP to the M Division with the first car to receive the material technology as extensive lightweight body panels being the M4 Coupe.
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      02-23-2012, 05:03 PM   #41
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Odd fact: Because of this carbon thing, BMW is now a member in the "Association of the Bavarian Textile Industry".
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      02-23-2012, 05:08 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Sure, I understand that it can be done. But - unlike fiberglass - carbon fiber is woven. I think of fixing carbon fiber like fixing a damaged clothing garment. You can do it of course, but you typically have to mend it with a patch of some sort, and as a result it usually does not look or feel like new again. With fiber glass, its more like fixing a chip in a windshield - you just fill it in and no one is the wiser (well maybe it isn't quite that simple, but you see what I mean).


Yes, carbon fiber is woven into a fabric and so is fiberglass when used for structural purposes,( the same glass fibers just longer strands). Repairing CF is NOT like fixing a garment. I understand what you mean by, "like fixing a chip in a windshield" but that pertains to the repair of chopped FG which is very heavy on resin. Chopped fiberglass doesn't have near the strength of fiberglass fabric(woven). The same basic procedure used to repair multi layered FG is how multi layered CF is repaired. A great deal of the strength is in the resin and fabric orientation. The repair requires bonding to each individual layer and in some cases the core, resulting in a strong, smooth and almost invisible repair.
I'm not just stating that it can be done. What I'm saying is that it's not as expensive or as laborious as some people may think. There will be training but it's not rocket science.


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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
With steel or aluminum I can weld two foot-long pieces together and have the result be as strong as one equivalent-thickness two-foot-long piece. Even with fiber glass, I can fuse two pieces together and have something as rigid as the original. But I don't think the same is true for carbon fiber. If it were, then instead of producing huge sheets of the material to create large parts, they could just patch a bunch of smaller squares of it together like a quilt or something. There's obviously a reason why they don't do it that way - the rigidity of the part is largely dependent one continuous woven sheet of material.

With metal repair work, the limit is usually based upon cost. For cases where there is sufficient motivation, just about any steel part can be fixed (within reason - a fire would make it almost impossible, as would a near complete destruction of the part in a horrific accident or perhaps an explosion). Consider classic cars, for example. Even when left to rot for years, they are typically salvageable and restoreable (incidentally that's a big advantage of CFRP - no rust). Or, if someone wrecks their rare Ferrari GTO on a track, they will more than likely get it back going again some way or another.
This is really no different that CF chassis repair. When you look at autos of the past with CF chassis construction,(MP4-12C & Aventador) you'll find that the occupant cell is the CF structure and the impact zones remain aluminum, magnesium and/or steel. The impact zones are easily replaced or repaired. In the event of damage to the CF occupant cell see my comment above. However, if the cell is severely damaged to the point of no repair then chances are the occupants are dead. The cells are just that strong....
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      02-23-2012, 07:12 PM   #43
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It appears we are headed towards an era of unbelievably expensive vehicles for the sake of meeting unrealistic efficiency standards all based on the false religious belief that carbon dioxide is a pollutant.
RELIGIOUS BELIEF?? wtf? sorry but CO2 IS a pollutant.
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      02-23-2012, 07:34 PM   #44
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CFRP for 7 Series It seems like that BMW is serious this time... It must be really expensive though.
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