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      02-23-2012, 07:56 PM   #45
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Peak oil and climate change aside...part of BMW's effort to make carbon fibre a mainline material for its mainline cars is to consider the cost of repairs.

Don't you think BMW has considered such an obvious point in their studies of using the material? They are not building cars in a vacuum and consider the marketability of the product as an essential characteristic that would make it a viable material for car construction.

With carbon fiber now being used (not without its challenges) on the Boeing 787 and major investment by several automotive companies, it should be obvious that with industrial production levels of carbon fiber will come substantial breakthroughs on cost.

While I'm not saying carbon fiber will be as cheap as steel (but, then again, who knows?), BMW obviously feels that by 2015 it can be competitive so that the advantages of the material outweigh the disadvantages. I'm sure they realize these cars will get damage, and few people would buy a 7 series if even a minor dent would cost the thousands of dollars it would cost today to replace a carbon fiber panel.
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      02-23-2012, 07:58 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by MR///M3 View Post
RELIGIOUS BELIEF?? wtf? sorry but CO2 IS a pollutant.
Who cares about CO2? Without it, we wouldn't be here...

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      02-23-2012, 08:07 PM   #47
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Given the similar size between a mini and the upcoming i3, I would have guessed mini to have the first ones. Guess not...
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      02-23-2012, 08:27 PM   #48
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Can't believe all the complaining from people regarding expensive repairs. WHO CARES???!!! THAT'S WHAT INSURANCE IS FOR!!!

I think it is fantastic news that BMW is moving heavily into carbon fiber. We need lighter, stronger, nimbler, more efficient cars and BMW is moving the goal posts with the i3 an i8.

These are the types of things I want to see from BMW, not artificially created sound played into the cabin of the M5.
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      02-23-2012, 08:32 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judah View Post
Yes, carbon fiber is woven into a fabric and so is fiberglass when used for structural purposes,( the same glass fibers just longer strands). Repairing CF is NOT like fixing a garment. I understand what you mean by, "like fixing a chip in a windshield" but that pertains to the repair of chopped FG which is very heavy on resin. Chopped fiberglass doesn't have near the strength of fiberglass fabric(woven). The same basic procedure used to repair multi layered FG is how multi layered CF is repaired. A great deal of the strength is in the resin and fabric orientation. The repair requires bonding to each individual layer and in some cases the core, resulting in a strong, smooth and almost invisible repair.
I'm not just stating that it can be done. What I'm saying is that it's not as expensive or as laborious as some people may think. There will be training but it's not rocket science.
Ok, fair enough, I see what you are saying. I was really thinking about non-strucutual fiberglass, so I see your points. To be honest, I am not really familiar with fiberglass as a structural material, since to my knowledge it isn't really suitable for a chassis material or in many other applications where carbon fiber is.

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This is really no different that CF chassis repair. When you look at autos of the past with CF chassis construction,(MP4-12C & Aventador) you'll find that the occupant cell is the CF structure and the impact zones remain aluminum, magnesium and/or steel. The impact zones are easily replaced or repaired. In the event of damage to the CF occupant cell see my comment above. However, if the cell is severely damaged to the point of no repair then chances are the occupants are dead. The cells are just that strong....
I hear you.

I don't think the i3 will be like those cars you mention in that, my understanding is that the body shell will be virtually all carbon fiber. I could be wrong about that, however that is my recollection from reading the press material and looking at the pictures that BMW release back when it was still called the "Megacity". In any case this won't effect the 7 series since it won't be nearly that carbon intensive - but as things evolve and time goes on it will no doubt gradually move in that direction assuming that the whole CFRP revolution within BMW has legs.

I would be interested to see the outcomes of structural carbon fiber repairs in today's cars and also other applications. Can you repair a carbon fiber ski or ski pole, for example? I have to admit I'd be surprised if you could. Well, not that you'd want to anyway, but it was just an off the cuff example to establish a base-line. What about a broken carbon fiber bicycle frame? Or a a brake rotor (I think they make those now, right F-599X)? Are they making carbon fiber suspensions now days? I think maybe in race cars right? Do they repair those? Not that you'd necessarily even want to repair such things if they were made from steel or aluminum either, but you probably could with success if you really needed to. Just some thoughts.
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      02-23-2012, 08:46 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Taipei-TT View Post
Don't you think BMW has considered such an obvious point in their studies of using the material? They are not building cars in a vacuum and consider the marketability of the product as an essential characteristic that would make it a viable material for car construction.
Well of course, but since we don't yet know what their strategy is, it is perfectly valid to discuss and to speculate. Of course it is important to keep facts in mind as well, and it is great that Judah is contributing his knowledge in that regard.

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I'm sure they realize these cars will get damage, and few people would buy a 7 series if even a minor dent would cost the thousands of dollars it would cost today to replace a carbon fiber panel.
Actually, I doubt that the cost concerns of this nature will have much impact on the consumers purchasing habits since it is the insurance companies who deal with financial side of things. For this reason, it is unlikely BMW will even address any challenges they foresee with repairs in a consumer targeted literature. As with just about every other advance in technology, their marketing team is tasked with bestowing the virtues, while leaving the drawbacks out of the discussion. Of course, speaking hypothetically, in the long run the consumer may end up paying in the form of higher premiums or what have you. But by the time they realize this the ship will have already sailed so to speak.

I think that the move of CFRP into mainstream automobiles is fantastic. But, the drawbacks, whatever those might be, are certainly worthy of discussion.
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      02-23-2012, 09:48 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Well of course, but since we don't yet know what their strategy is, it is perfectly valid to discuss and to speculate. Of course it is important to keep facts in mind as well, and it is great that Judah is contributing his knowledge in that regard.


I think that the move of CFRP into mainstream automobiles is fantastic. But, the drawbacks, whatever those might be, are certainly worthy of discussion.
Ah, my bad...I didn't want to come off as anti-discussion on a discussion board!

BMW has been moving this way with things like the plastic front quarter panels on the E92 and plastic trunk lids on the 6 series. (Does the new 6 have this too?) Carbon Fiber roofs in M cars are a natural extension of this..a part of the car where less weight lowers CG and improves driving dynamics, and can't get dinged in the supermarket parking lot!

I feel that CFRP is BMW's attempt to leapfrog the competition by skipping further incorporation of aluminum in its cars so it certainly carries the additional risk of pioneering new solutions rather than evolving the tried and tested ways of the past.

I guess my point, and my hope, is that with widespread industrial production of CFRP and the economies of scale this entails, we will see a commensurate reduction in price that may make future cars even cheaper and easier to repair.
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      02-23-2012, 09:53 PM   #52
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Exclamation CO2

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Originally Posted by Blubaron79 View Post
How is it not a pollutant? Even if you are correct, and you're not; oil is finite...

Sorry but he is right. CO2 is not an pollutant. Now if you are in the US, it is hard to do research and find out that all this "Global Warming caused by CO2" is just political bullshit supported by scientists that are paid by the government. However in Europe there is a lot of debate about that and it's more likely that Carbon Black might have any relevance to the climate.

Flowers live on CO2....
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      02-23-2012, 10:40 PM   #53
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Shocked no one has noticed Scott26's comments about the new 7er having advanced tech from the i8- simply incredible....

One would expect the next 7 to move decently upscale for all this tech etc. and I could see the base MSRP for the next 750i (not Li)reaching 100k easy.

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      02-23-2012, 11:12 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by esqu1re
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Originally Posted by richardg View Post
yeah seriously. WTF? lol oil WILL eventually run out. The real question is when. Anyway I hope this leads to some cool car tech in the future. It is amazing how much more efficient cars are today and the trend is only going to continue
Unfortunately, it's a losing battle. Even if cars are 2x more efficient, the population is increasing and more and more people will be driving cars. All the while, the "low hanging fruit" oil is depleting, and although we may have only depleted less than 1/2 of the world's oil (in only the last 100+ years!), one cannot expect that the second half will be as easily (or as cost-efficiently) obtainable as the first half.
There are indications (not yet proven) that some oil fields in the Gulf of Mexico are regenerating themselves. If this turns out to be the case the rules will change.
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      02-24-2012, 12:20 AM   #55
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Sorry but he is right. CO2 is not an pollutant. Now if you are in the US, it is hard to do research and find out that all this "Global Warming caused by CO2" is just political bullshit supported by scientists that are paid by the government. However in Europe there is a lot of debate about that and it's more likely that Carbon Black might have any relevance to the climate.

Flowers live on CO2....
No. The republicans made it political. C02 at least makes the oceans acidic. It does cause global warming. 99% of scientists agree. Keep watching Fox news.
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      02-24-2012, 01:09 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver
It appears we are headed towards an era of unbelievably expensive vehicles for the sake of meeting unrealistic efficiency standards all based on the false religious belief that carbon dioxide is a pollutant.
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      02-24-2012, 03:10 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver View Post
It appears we are headed towards an era of unbelievably expensive vehicles for the sake of meeting unrealistic efficiency standards all based on the false religious belief that carbon dioxide is a pollutant.
Really? Religious is the completely the wrong word there. I will grant you that whether or not CO2 should be a pollutant in the traditional sense of the word is debatable. However, it is not debatable that CO2 causes a rise in global mean temperature, CO2 is primarily coming from human activity, CO2 causing an increase in the acidity of the oceans, and that the long term impact on low-lying coastal areas could be devastating due to sea-level rise.

It is certain fanatical religious beliefs that are allowing someone like Santorum to have a public stage to call for restricting the rights of women and homosexuals. When did the Republican party start tolerating candidates that want to restrict a group of people's rights so much? I feel bad for all the rational Republicans having to be associated with these irrational, fanatical idiots. But I digress...


Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
While I don't necessarily agree with you on all of that, there is a definitely a good point being made here.

The fact is that the automotive industry is being legislated into a highly regulated, optimally functioning machine, while other industries are left alone to continue in their traditional "un-green" fashion. As I recall, automobiles contribute only about 20% of all greenhouse gases, yet the sources of the other 80% are not facing nearly as much scrutiny. In short, we are spending a lot of money optimizing the wrong part of the infrastructure. You can build a zero emissions car that uses no oil at all, but if you are still powering everything else - the machines to obtain the raw materials; the factories that turn those materials into parts; the boats, trucks, and trains responsible for the transportation of those materials; and the assembly plants that build the car - with unsustainable energy sources, then you are not really solving any problem.

A lightweight car is great because it will make for a more efficient car. But we can make a factory or power plant more efficient without having to worry about making it lightweight to begin with. Why not start there?

The problem is that almost all new power plants built (in the US and Europe) these days are tremendously efficient, and there is almost nothing to be gained for a given fuel source. Why do you think that the energy cost of electricity is so low? It would be a tremendous waste of capital to try to replace a lot of old coal plants with co-gen plants before the end of their life-span.

Industries have an absolute financial interest in efficiently using a resource, so most generally are (especially newly built). The CO2 taxes and cap/trade systems also seek to force more change in this regard, which can be thought of as analogous to CAFE requirements for cars. Blame the lobbyists for the relative lack of efficiency regulations on industry. Also, large infrastructure is replaced on the time scale of 30-50 years, whereas cars are typically <10 years, so you have a more immediate effect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kgroschi View Post
Sorry but he is right. CO2 is not an pollutant. Now if you are in the US, it is hard to do research and find out that all this "Global Warming caused by CO2" is just political bullshit supported by scientists that are paid by the government. However in Europe there is a lot of debate about that and it's more likely that Carbon Black might have any relevance to the climate.

Flowers live on CO2....
The reason it's hard to find information to contradict climate change theory is because science supports it essentially 100%. I think you mean "black carbon"? Carbon black is an industrial product in rubber reinforcement, pigments, and additives.

Black carbon/soot may have a significant effect on climate changes, but is generally believed to be significantly less than CO2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_carbon
Either way, it still comes from the combustion of hydrocarbons/biomass, so you either end up with CO2 or black carbon. Black carbon is also short-lived in the atmosphere, so we could theoretically change our habits and have an immediate effect.
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      02-24-2012, 05:31 AM   #58
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Why didn't they use cornflakes for that?
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      02-24-2012, 06:59 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgroschi View Post

this "Global Warming caused by CO2" is just political bullshit...

Flowers live on CO2....
Tell a guy thats drowning that he needs water to live.
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      02-24-2012, 08:42 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Blubaron79 View Post
How is it not a pollutant? Even if you are correct, and you're not; oil is finite...
Ever hear of photosynthesis?

So when do we start regulating the CO2 output of the world’s largest pollution source - the 6 billion or so humans that live on the planet?

Internal combustion engines can run on other fuels as well as gasoline.

There are some geologists who believe oil is not finite...

Are you going to be the first one to volunteer to stop breathing for the sake of the planet?

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      02-24-2012, 08:48 AM   #61
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Really? The reason it's hard to find information to contradict climate change theory is because science supports it essentially 100%.
Try reading Patrick Michaels from the University of Virginia... It's not so hard to find contradicting science.
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      02-24-2012, 09:00 AM   #62
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The problem is that almost all new power plants built (in the US and Europe) these days are tremendously efficient, and there is almost nothing to be gained for a given fuel source. Why do you think that the energy cost of electricity is so low? It would be a tremendous waste of capital to try to replace a lot of old coal plants with co-gen plants before the end of their life-span.
To first answer that question: I don't know that I do. But even if I do, clearly the cost issue has been deemed of secondary or lesser importance by the powers-that-be since automakers are being forced to comply to efficiency standards in utter costs-be-damned fashion. Write or wrong, if you are going to tell the automakers that we can't put a price on saving the earth, then everyone else should be guided by the same philosophy.

If there is "almost nothing to be gained from a given fuel source", well then we need to find a new way. Co-gen is one answer, but there are clearly others, and while I am fully aware that all answers come with their share of drawbacks, the same is true for hybrid-electric, full-electric, and fuel cell automobiles. Yet these solutions are nevertheless being pursued.

To my eye, there's a very clear imbalance here. You can justify the current state of affairs however you want, but automakers are having the screws put very tightly to their thumbs, while some other industries and organizations - often bigger offenders at that - roam relatively freely.
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      02-24-2012, 09:17 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
To first answer that question: I don't know that I do. But even if I do, clearly the cost issue has been deemed of secondary or lesser importance by the powers-that-be since automakers are being forced to comply to efficiency standards in utter costs-be-damned fashion. Write or wrong, if you are going to tell the automakers that we can't put a price on saving the earth, then everyone else should be guided by the same philosophy.

If there is "almost nothing to be gained from a given fuel source", well then we need to find a new way. Co-gen is one answer, but there are clearly others, and while I am fully aware that all answers come with their share of drawbacks, the same is true for hybrid-electric, full-electric, and fuel cell automobiles. Yet these solutions are nevertheless being pursued.

To my eye, there's a very clear imbalance here. You can justify the current state of affairs however you want, but automakers are having the screws put very tightly to their thumbs, while some other industries and organizations - often bigger offenders at that - roam relatively freely.
Valid points. I am not saying that focusing on cars is right, or even the most efficient way.

I guess regulating car emissions via CAFE is the easiest because there is a framework for it already in place. God knows nothing new is getting implemented in Congress these days. I suppose it is also a way to distribute the "pain" over a large group of people, instead of a narrow industry (though industry could just pass the cost on to the consumers). In cars, you could probably make the case that adding a turbo to make a more efficient engine (per power output) works out best for everyone in the end:
- the car costs more to build by the company can pass along those costs to consumers (and maybe charge a premium because it is higher-tech)
- the consumer has to pay more up front but makes back their investment and more in terms of fuel cost savings over the life of the car
- the environment benefits because less fuel is consumed in total
- the US benefits because it reduces our dependence on foreign oil

I am all for a balanced approach to energy production, CO2 reduction, and environmental controls because there is no conceivable way for one group to carry all the load.
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      02-24-2012, 09:40 AM   #64
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      02-24-2012, 10:24 AM   #65
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Man all this talk about that carbon and that dioxide is making me flustered. Why don't we all just agree that a straight six is more fun than a four pot. And back to the CF.
What about the lamborghini Sesto peso(Sesto elemento)? I'm fairly sure they made a few of those. Anyone know how those are doing? Granted the price of that is astronomical in comparison to a BMW but it should be fair to use it as a basis for the success of the use of carbon fibre extensively in a road car. Or I think someone already mentioned it. The MP4-12C?
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      02-24-2012, 12:49 PM   #66
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Man all this talk about that carbon and that dioxide is making me flustered. Why don't we all just agree that a straight six is more fun than a four pot. And back to the CF.
What about the lamborghini Sesto peso(Sesto elemento)? I'm fairly sure they made a few of those. Anyone know how those are doing? Granted the price of that is astronomical in comparison to a BMW but it should be fair to use it as a basis for the success of the use of carbon fibre extensively in a road car. Or I think someone already mentioned it. The MP4-12C?
The Lambo Sesto elemento was a concept, so no, they haven't made a few of those.
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