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      04-22-2016, 12:08 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZilberGrau ZHP View Post
What has made their brand so unique have been built around many things- but one main one- the engine is pretty much persona non grata as it pertains to the current and future EV's ... If Tesla delivers on their new one to the tune of 330,000 first time out- what a game changer that is.
I wouldn't say that BMW is an engine company like, say, Honda (e.g., you can buy just about any conveyance or tool with a Honda engine in it).

Both BMW and Tesla are lifestyle companies like Apple - it's not electric engines that people are buying it's the tesla-mystique lifestyle: different, innovative, expensive, green. This is why BMW is experimenting with hydrogen fuel cells, e-cars, etc.
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Originally Posted by Welcome to NBA Jam View Post
When you make the most affordable car look like this:
And the most expensive car look like this: Then duh, sales are going to suck.
That's a little one-dimensional. BMW isn't a widgets company so, oops, not varied enough widgets. It's a lifestyle company which is about emotion ... driven, in BMW's case, by Bavarian Cool design: sporty, technical, fancy, expensive. People go to the Welt to hang out!

BMW has business memory on e-cars. The trick with a lifestyle brand is that you have to match the product to the brand chic ... and BMW would be completely stupid to dump a whole line of e-cars onto the market without finding that right mix.

In short, this ain't their first rodeo.

Here's a 1972 BMW 1602 e-car:



Hydrogen in 2007 (almost 10 years ago!):



Here's a whole mix of BMW e-cars at the Google campus:

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      04-22-2016, 01:09 PM   #68
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http://www.slideshare.net/DavidQuarl...-tesla-battery

http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/03/20/ba...electric-cars/

The BMW-Samsung partnership currently uses a lithium manganese cobalt battery compared to Tesla-Panasonic's lithium ion (laptop) battery module. While Tesla will be able to supercharge the battery in 30 minutes, the lifespan of their batteries is seriously diminished (under 5 years). Dead batteries on a Tesla? No problem, just buy a new one!
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      04-22-2016, 01:15 PM   #69
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Yawn....

The i8 is analogous to cubic zirconia. Or boobs in a push-up bra. It looks like the real thing...but it isn't.

Why would I spend $150K on a car that is roughly equivalent to a 335 with PPK, from a performance standpoint? I can also get the scissor doors installed on my car at the local Ziebart, so....I am not seeing the appeal, other than the looks.

And the i3 costs more than rivals who perform better...so i see no appeal there either.

Maybe they (BMW) can move some money and resources around so that the M guys can build a car people will give a shit about...like an M2 CSL...since it is obvious that no one will allow them to build a supercar.
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      04-22-2016, 01:21 PM   #70
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If BMW isnt ready, Tesla is going to do to the German auto industry what Apple did to Blackberry(RIM) and Nokia and Sony. Wipe it out.
Hope BMW and all recognize the seriousness of the Tesla threat, not just to the i Brand but the entire company.

I think in 10yrs the automotive picture is going to be very different if they dont come up with an answer to the Model 3.
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      04-22-2016, 03:46 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agni View Post
If BMW isnt ready, Tesla is going to do to the German auto industry what Apple did to Blackberry(RIM) and Nokia and Sony. Wipe it out.
Hope BMW and all recognize the seriousness of the Tesla threat, not just to the i Brand but the entire company.

I think in 10yrs the automotive picture is going to be very different if they dont come up with an answer to the Model 3.
But the industry is already in the game and developing more sustainable alternatives than just electric or plug-in hybrid which is not just about range but also performance.
I do not think it will wipe out the German auto industry as badge prestige remains a primary option for our and everybody else's customers globally.

The Tesla threat? Well if BMW had a 3er that attracted 400,000 units for pre sale then the factory would be expanded to make way for expansion on production or a new plant built and ready to deliver the car on schedule. Both i3 and i8 reached the market on schedule and that involved building a new plant to manufacture CFRP as well as a completely new production line at Leipzig all due thanks to massive investment from BMW.

Both recent Tesla models have been affected by delays. And with the production units expected in late 2017 but again could be possibly delayed by that time there will be direct competitors and many customers will have probably dropped out from the list either due to another product or price adjustments?

Where Tesla will do damage will be with the volume domestic manufacturers.

Which either way whoever wins the battle? The American taxpayer will still be paying for it.
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      04-22-2016, 04:02 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agni View Post
If BMW isnt ready, Tesla is going to do to the German auto industry what Apple did to Blackberry(RIM) and Nokia and Sony. Wipe it out.
Hope BMW and all recognize the seriousness of the Tesla threat, not just to the i Brand but the entire company.

I think in 10yrs the automotive picture is going to be very different if they dont come up with an answer to the Model 3.
No it's not. Good lord. You're comparing a product that's only been viable for 13 years or so (that's when the first smartphones came out ... remember the Palm Treo?) to a product that's been around for well more than a century.

Please realize this: Tesla is not a carmaker. It's an energy company that happens to be using cars as a development platform. Is it a lifestyle brand right now? Very much so. Will it be in 15 years? I doubt it, because what Tesla will make in 2031 (or thereabouts) will be used in other products or by other products that will transcend lifestyles. Even Apple couldn't achieve that kind of market saturation with hardware (though it definitely wanted to, particularly with the iPod).

Also, you seem to conveniently forget that other CE makers have filled the void left by BlackBerry, Nokia, etc.: Samsung, HTC, LG, Motorola, et. al.

All the Model 3 will do is open the door for an avenue for other manufacturers to walk down regarding affordable and practical EVs. The Model 3 will simply be first to market -- and, if I'm not mistaken, products that are first to market rarely end up remaining the best in that market (though it does happen: Mazda Miata is one example.)
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      04-22-2016, 04:37 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
I do not think it will wipe out the German auto industry as badge prestige remains a primary option for our and everybody else's customers globally.
Counting on the snootiness are we? Good plan
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      04-22-2016, 04:39 PM   #74
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Not surprised to see but BMW will come up with another slew of a better team. It has to.
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      04-22-2016, 05:04 PM   #75
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Mercedes seem to have cottoned on

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...pired-supercar
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      04-22-2016, 05:32 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
Counting on the snootiness are we? Good plan
No just thinking globally. Age old traditions that mattered today and yesterday will still matter tomorrow.
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      04-22-2016, 05:34 PM   #77
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When a car company receives pre-orders of 300k vehicles for a similar quality vehicle to the 3 series, that happens to be 3x the number of annual sales of the 3 series in North America, I don't know how any reasonable argument can be made that Tesla is not BMW's competitor. Do you think Tesla believes it isn't? Where is the market share coming from? Everyone including the Euro auto manufacturers! The model S is outselling the 7 series (similar price point) and now with the model 3, you will be getting a similar quality car for less money and with lower operating costs. Also you argue that Tesla has problems reaching volume production capacity, but at the same time you assert that the US volume manufacturers will become most hurt by the model 3. How is that a logical statement?

With all due respect, if your bosses/BMW actually believe that Tesla is not a BMW competitor, the battle has already been lost. The proper identification of competitive threats is the building block for developing a long-term sustainable competitive advantage. If the threat is poorly or wrongly defined, all the efforts that follow will be costly with limited to no efficacy.

Sound like all this unprecedented management turnover (it IS at a level that has surprised industry insiders) may be a direct result of escaping the echo chamber of BMW corporate strategic thinking.

The M2's success was basically the easiest job in the world when you think about it..BMW just had to listen to the intelligent and experienced enthusiasts on this board and in widely respected automotive publications, who have owned/experienced multiple BMWs over generations and can probably provide a far superior "focus group" to any traditional corporate marketing/data gathering approach. Basically (and to BMW's credit), the company addressed in the M2 what enthusiasts have pointed out of the M4 weaknesses: too detached, no emotion, no soul, lacking in purity/simplicity, sounds crappy, too large, imbalanced power vs chassis, and poor steering feel.

BMW would be much better served by actively seeking out the opinions of enthusiasts and members on this board, instead of calling them wrong all the time. It's a lot less expensive and can probably garner a lot of quality feedback from the most direct and experienced sources. It is for the historical love of BMW that members on this board choose to do this (and use up their own free time), so don't understand why such opinions would be summarily dismissed?



Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
But the industry is already in the game and developing more sustainable alternatives than just electric or plug-in hybrid which is not just about range but also performance.
I do not think it will wipe out the German auto industry as badge prestige remains a primary option for our and everybody else's customers globally.

The Tesla threat? Well if BMW had a 3er that attracted 400,000 units for pre sale then the factory would be expanded to make way for expansion on production or a new plant built and ready to deliver the car on schedule. Both i3 and i8 reached the market on schedule and that involved building a new plant to manufacture CFRP as well as a completely new production line at Leipzig all due thanks to massive investment from BMW.

Both recent Tesla models have been affected by delays. And with the production units expected in late 2017 but again could be possibly delayed by that time there will be direct competitors and many customers will have probably dropped out from the list either due to another product or price adjustments?

Where Tesla will do damage will be with the volume domestic manufacturers.

Which either way whoever wins the battle? The American taxpayer will still be paying for it.
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      04-22-2016, 09:24 PM   #78
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Seems like a waste to go to a Chinese company. Communist capitalism ... Yeah that will work long term. All of them will wish they never left or end up with a western company in a year or two.
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      04-23-2016, 04:21 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
Counting on the snootiness are we? Good plan
No just thinking globally. Age old traditions that mattered today and yesterday will still matter tomorrow.
Sorry but I can't resist saying remember that when you remove the drive shaft from the next 1er
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      04-23-2016, 05:07 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MThree_driver View Post
The i8 isn't a failure in terms of its technology. It's failed in terms of its league...150k for a car that performs like that of a car much much less than itself. People who look at the i8 have money for just about any car they choose. Why should they choose the i8 when they have cars such as the gt3, m6, p90d, etc to choose from? That's like setting the M6 at the same price point of the aventador. What's going to get chosen? The car doesn't perform like a 150k car, in any category. Most of the technology in the car can be had in much lesser models. It's a hybrid, okay, so is the Prius. What makes the car super unique? The looks? The battery? It's simply not worth 150k, and just because BMW decided to spend over $2 billion to produce it doesn't mean we the consumers should be paying for their mistake.

Chevy has come out with an electric car (the bolt) that is getting more hype than the i3 that's been out for years. Thing gets 200+ miles on a charge. BMW released a battery that might get 120 miles for this upcoming year. Something is going on that isn't right. BMW has never produced second rate stuff.

"BMW quality is better than Chevys"..that might be true, for now. But let me know how the Chevy looks from the back as the i3 dies and the bolt is going for another 80 miles..
And how in God's name did Chevy do it without using carbon fiber?
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      04-23-2016, 05:12 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Agreed. They just lost management, not the actual people who know anything.
Right, because every successful company never has any senior management...
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      04-23-2016, 05:17 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agni View Post
If BMW isnt ready, Tesla is going to do to the German auto industry what Apple did to Blackberry(RIM) and Nokia and Sony. Wipe it out.
Hope BMW and all recognize the seriousness of the Tesla threat, not just to the i Brand but the entire company.

I think in 10yrs the automotive picture is going to be very different if they dont come up with an answer to the Model 3.
Can we please stop comparing cell phones to cars for Christ's sake.
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      04-23-2016, 05:25 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
No it's not. Good lord. You're comparing a product that's only been viable for 13 years or so (that's when the first smartphones came out ... remember the Palm Treo?) to a product that's been around for well more than a century.

Please realize this: Tesla is not a carmaker. It's an energy company that happens to be using cars as a development platform. Is it a lifestyle brand right now? Very much so. Will it be in 15 years? I doubt it, because what Tesla will make in 2031 (or thereabouts) will be used in other products or by other products that will transcend lifestyles. Even Apple couldn't achieve that kind of market saturation with hardware (though it definitely wanted to, particularly with the iPod).

Also, you seem to conveniently forget that other CE makers have filled the void left by BlackBerry, Nokia, etc.: Samsung, HTC, LG, Motorola, et. al.

All the Model 3 will do is open the door for an avenue for other manufacturers to walk down regarding affordable and practical EVs. The Model 3 will simply be first to market -- and, if I'm not mistaken, products that are first to market rarely end up remaining the best in that market (though it does happen: Mazda Miata is one example.)
Correction.... That will be the Chevy Bolt. It will beat the Model 3 to the market by 12 months only if Tesla meets it production deadlines and price point, which its history says most likely will not happen.
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      04-23-2016, 05:47 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by MThree_driver View Post
The i8 isn't a failure in terms of its technology. It's failed in terms of its league...150k for a car that performs like that of a car much much less than itself. People who look at the i8 have money for just about any car they choose. Why should they choose the i8 when they have cars such as the gt3, m6, p90d, etc to choose from? That's like setting the M6 at the same price point of the aventador. What's going to get chosen? The car doesn't perform like a 150k car, in any category. Most of the technology in the car can be had in much lesser models. It's a hybrid, okay, so is the Prius. What makes the car super unique? The looks? The battery? It's simply not worth 150k, and just because BMW decided to spend over $2 billion to produce it doesn't mean we the consumers should be paying for their mistake.

Chevy has come out with an electric car (the bolt) that is getting more hype than the i3 that's been out for years. Thing gets 200+ miles on a charge. BMW released a battery that might get 120 miles for this upcoming year. Something is going on that isn't right. BMW has never produced second rate stuff.

"BMW quality is better than Chevys"..that might be true, for now. But let me know how the Chevy looks from the back as the i3 dies and the bolt is going for another 80 miles..
And how in God's name did Chevy do it without using carbon fiber?
How has Cadillac made the ats-V a viable competitor the the m3 when the m3 has 30 years of development?

Some companies let their engineers run the show
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      04-23-2016, 06:30 AM   #85
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Hearing this I wonder if BMW missed out on a great strategic opportunity to team up with Apple on their electric car.

At the rate BMWi is going, I doubt they'll be able to pull significant EV market share from Tesla on their own.
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      04-23-2016, 07:33 AM   #86
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Wieland Bruch, a BMW spokesman, said the BMW i products have been very successful in their individual market segments. The i8 is the best-selling plug-in sports car, he said in an email.

This is whats wrong w BMW. Too proud to admit failure. And too willing to twist reality. The i8 is the only sports plug in hybrid, so yeah obviously it is the best selling
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      04-23-2016, 07:36 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agni View Post
If BMW isnt ready, Tesla is going to do to the German auto industry what Apple did to Blackberry(RIM) and Nokia and Sony. Wipe it out.
Hope BMW and all recognize the seriousness of the Tesla threat, not just to the i Brand but the entire company.

I think in 10yrs the automotive picture is going to be very different if they dont come up with an answer to the Model 3.
But the industry is already in the game and developing more sustainable alternatives than just electric or plug-in hybrid which is not just about range but also performance.
I do not think it will wipe out the German auto industry as badge prestige remains a primary option for our and everybody else's customers globally.

The Tesla threat? Well if BMW had a 3er that attracted 400,000 units for pre sale then the factory would be expanded to make way for expansion on production or a new plant built and ready to deliver the car on schedule. Both i3 and i8 reached the market on schedule and that involved building a new plant to manufacture CFRP as well as a completely new production line at Leipzig all due thanks to massive investment from BMW.

Both recent Tesla models have been affected by delays. And with the production units expected in late 2017 but again could be possibly delayed by that time there will be direct competitors and many customers will have probably dropped out from the list either due to another product or price adjustments?

Where Tesla will do damage will be with the volume domestic manufacturers.

Which either way whoever wins the battle? The American taxpayer will still be paying for it.
Yes the american taxpayer will have it for tesla is right. But at least we are not slayed to death by gas and diesel taxes like you foolish europeans
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      04-23-2016, 10:19 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
Yes the american taxpayer will have it for tesla is right. But at least we are not slayed to death by gas and diesel taxes like you foolish europeans
Unless you elect a greater socialist than the last time.
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