My Big Fat Geek Wording - More ICE vs. EV debate

[Eddien123]

This is where the worlds headed. I am in my 20s but I find myself on the side with the older crowd. Im not too fond of electric cars. However I am aware of where we headed. I would just like some proof that they are actually eco friendly. The production of batteries isnt exactly the cleanest thing. And the recycling of batteries is even worse to my understanding. Does not inspire much confidence when you realize the only reason we are heading to all electric is for the environment but if they are doing similar damage whats the point?

Even Tesla who clearly runs the segment right now struggles to charge the batteries faster than 30 minutes. And even then You only acquire some 75% of range was it? thats all well and good but a long road trip is nearly impossible. Or so time consuming it would make more sense to just fly there or use a gasoline/diesel car. The i8 is quite the achievement for sure but look at the cost. Electric cars are extremely expensive compared to their gasoline counterparts. I am excited to see how we move into the world of electric cars but until these major issues get ironed out (which I am sure they will with time) I think combustion engines will be the choice of most people.

[TheUltimateDrivingManiac]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

Even Tesla who clearly runs the segment right now struggles to charge the batteries faster than 30 minutes. And even then You only acquire some 75% of range was it? thats all well and good but a long road trip is nearly impossible. Or so time consuming it would make more sense to just fly there or use a gasoline/diesel car. The i8 is quite the achievement for sure but look at the cost. Electric cars are extremely expensive compared to their gasoline counterparts. I am excited to see how we move into the world of electric cars but until these major issues get ironed out (which I am sure they will with time) I think combustion engines will be the choice of most people.

I'm more worried that if everybody will switch to electric, current power generating and delivery systems will just collapse.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by TheUltimateDrivingManiac

I'm more worried that if everybody will switch to electric, current power generating and delivery systems will just collapse.

Also a good concern. Perhaps not collapse, but the demand for all that power would result in the increased production. Mostly burning fossil fuels so we are back to square one.

[TheUltimateDrivingManiac]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

Also a good concern. Perhaps not collapse, but the demand for all that power would result in the increased production. Mostly burning fossil fuels so we are back to square one.

I just don't think there's enough capacity. And you cannot expand it quickly.

[Killed by Death]

Glad I'm getting old, all this electronic BS is pissing me off

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by TheUltimateDrivingManiac

I just don't think there's enough capacity. And you cannot expand it quickly.

Most of the electric car charging will be done at night, when we have a huge excess. We currently have to PAY to get rid of it.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

This is where the worlds headed. I am in my 20s but I find myself on the side with the older crowd. Im not too fond of electric cars. However I am aware of where we headed. I would just like some proof that they are actually eco friendly. The production of batteries isnt exactly the cleanest thing. And the recycling of batteries is even worse to my understanding. Does not inspire much confidence when you realize the only reason we are heading to all electric is for the environment but if they are doing similar damage whats the point?

The thing is, it doesn't matter if batteries are worse for the environment than combustion engines are. And for the record, I am not taking a stand on that one way or the other.

From the auto manufacturers perspective, electric vehicles are a highly desirable business to be in. Why? Because a combustion engine is a disaster from an engineering perspective. It's inefficient (what, 30% efficiency at best?), it's complex as anything out there - especially when you factor in the transmission, differential(s), and other components necessary to distribute power to the drive wheels.

Contrast that with an electric drivetrain. You don't need an engine, so there is no crankshaft, there are no pistons, valves, cams, belts, pumps, fuel lines, injectors - none of that. Furthermore you don't need a transmission, you don't need a driveshaft, and soon you won't even need a differential or indeed any gears at all. You'll just need four electric motors - one per wheel - and they are very efficient: over 90% so. Add some wiring to connect everything to the power source and you are done.

Automakers have to continue to build ICE vehicles for as long as they are in demand. But they want that demand to subside sooner than later. Environment? Zero tailpipe? Well, that's great too, sure. But the real advantage is much less complexity both in the vehicle and the manufacturing and design of that vehicle. If you are an automaker, that's the primary motivator here - make no mistake about it.

And what about those batteries and all the pollution that results from the manufacturing of them and from the collection of the raw materials needed to make them work? Temporary. Someday fuel cells, or maybe something even better, will make all that a thing of the past. By the time we figure out that battery production killed off a bunch of us (if it does, I mean - I'm not saying it as fact), it'll all be obsolete and forgotten.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The thing is, it doesn't matter if batteries are worse for the environment than combustion engines are. And for the record, I am not taking a stand on that one way or the other.

From the auto manufacturers perspective, electric vehicles are a highly desirable business to be in. Why? Because a combustion engine is a disaster from an engineering perspective. It's inefficient (what, 30% efficiency at best?), it's complex as anything out there - especially when you factor in the transmission, differential(s), and other components necessary to distribute power to the drive wheels.

Contrast that with an electric drivetrain. You don't need an engine, so there is no crankshaft, there are no pistons, valves, cams, belts, pumps, fuel lines, injectors - none of that. Furthermore you don't need a transmission, you don't need a driveshaft, and soon you won't even need a differential or indeed any gears at all. You'll just need four electric motors - one per wheel - and they are very efficient: over 90% so. Add some wiring to connect everything to the power source and you are done.

Automakers have to continue to build ICE vehicles for as long as they are in demand. But they want that demand to subside sooner than later. Environment? Zero tailpipe? Well, that's great too, sure. But the real advantage is much less complexity both in the vehicle and the manufacturing and design of that vehicle. If you are an automaker, that's the primary motivator here - make no mistake about it.

And what about those batteries and all the pollution that results from the manufacturing of them and from the collection of the raw materials needed to make them work? Temporary. Someday fuel cells, or maybe something even better, will make all that a thing of the past. By the time we figure out that battery production killed off a bunch of us (if it does, I mean - I'm not saying it as fact), it'll all be obsolete and forgotten.

Fair point. I never discredited electric cars. I was just listing my concerns. You bring up good points and to add to what you were saying, look at how far we have come with combustion engines. Today we have 3 cylinder engines that produce the same power as old 8 even 12 cylinders. We can achieve great things when we put out minds to things. Im excited to see where we are 50 years from now with electric cars.

[Bimmertron]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

I would just like some proof that they are actually eco friendly. The production of batteries isnt exactly the cleanest thing. And the recycling of batteries is even worse to my understanding. Does not inspire much confidence when you realize the only reason we are heading to all electric is for the environment but if they are doing similar damage whats the point?

This is the part I get tired of hearing (obviously nothing personal). Why does everyone try to make a counter-argument about the cleanliness of batteries as if it's what's on the average consumers mind? The point is its a cheap, simplified, and efficient (in terms of how the motor works) system. We have to move past the perception electric is just "I'm saving the world", and accept that a majority (myself included) just want to have a car that you don't have to spend a shit-ton on gas. The instant acceleration, the autonomy features, etc. These are all the appealing things to me about an electric car, saving $. My primary concern with electric never has, nor will be the impact, but what qualities does it improve upon. Reliability? Check. Simplification? check. Cheap energy? Check. Yes it still has work, and these are all still in such an early state, but when have you ever read anyone asking "but what is the impact the batteries of my car is making, during the manufacturing process?" Instead you'll much more likely see questions like "is this affordable?" "How much does the energy cost to recharge the car on a daily basis?" "how far does it go at full capacity?", etc.

[mvigod]

I don't care what people think about electric power but our grid is 1000% not capable of handling the number of cars on the road. I mean USA and everywhere else for that matter.

There are over 250 million vehicles registered in the USA alone. Imagine 90% of them attempting to suck down 50 to 100 amps at night for several hours. We can't even handle 100 degree days when everyone has AC running and cities have rolling blackouts. FYI AC units don't pull even close to 50 or 100 amps generally.

If you do the math on any major highway and exchange all the gas cars for electric there will never be enough chargers to accommodate a fraction of the need. Simple math. Even a supercharger taking 20 to 30 minutes is equal to 5 to 7 combustion vehicles fueling up at a pump. Also, ICE fill ups people leave as soon as tank is full. For most electric charging stations people tend to plug in and go shop and cars might stick at the charger for another 15 minutes to an hour further exacerbating things. It just doesn't work at scale. Even now Tesla owners complain about supercharger congestion.

All that said, BMW does need to get in the game and faster than they are indicating here. There are many huge problems to overcome. Musk knows a panel on your roof and powerwall battery are the only solution to scale this as the logistics otherwise do not work.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by chriscam95

This is the part I get tired of hearing (obviously nothing personal). Why does everyone try to make a counter-argument about the cleanliness of batteries as if it's what's on the average consumers mind? The point is its a cheap, simplified, and efficient (in terms of how the motor works) system. We have to move past the perception electric is just "I'm saving the world", and accept that a majority (myself included) just want to have a car that you don't have to spend a shit-ton on gas. The instant acceleration, the autonomy features, etc. These are all the appealing things to me about an electric car, saving $. My primary concern with electric never has, nor will be the impact, but what qualities does it improve upon. Reliability? Check. Simplification? check. Cheap energy? Check. Yes it still has work, and these are all still in such an early state, but when have you ever read anyone asking "but what is the impact the batteries of my car is making, during the manufacturing process?" Instead you'll much more likely see questions like "is this affordable?" "How much does the energy cost to recharge the car on a daily basis?" "how far does it go at full capacity?", etc.

I understand. But my point is we clearly have mastered the combustion engine. The way I see it (especially now) the only reason to go electric is for environmental reasons. Electric cars are far more expensive than gasoline cars.. so until they are cheaper than gasoline cars, I cant support them unless they can prove to be at least environmentally friendly.

Yes you are right. They are simplistic in design and have a lot of potential to be great. But I dont think they are there yet.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

I understand. But my point is we clearly have mastered the combustion engine.

There is always room for improving the engine, or the way we propel our vehicles. Maybe electric is one of them.

Originally Posted by Eddien123

The way I see it (especially now) the only reason to go electric is for environmental reasons.

Instant torque is a huge plus for EVs. My i3 is quicker off the line than my F80 M3 despite a 200+ lb-ft advantage because it's instant.

Originally Posted by Eddien123

Electric cars are far more expensive than gasoline cars.. so until they are cheaper than gasoline cars, I cant support them unless they can prove to be at least environmentally friendly.

New technology is often more expensive until we build an infrastructure that supports more and more efficient manufacturing processes. Market competition will motivate the manufacturer to innovate to lower production costs once they have fully committed to the EV.

Originally Posted by Eddien123

Yes you are right. They are simplistic in design and have a lot of potential to be great. But I dont think they are there yet.

Have you driven an i3, i8, Tesla, or even a Bolt? They are great cars, and these are the pioneers. It will only get better and better. I'm not saying I will not miss my ICE performance cars like the M3 and 911, and as much as I love my M3, when I drive my i3, I see how much potential the future has for EVs . It's not a bad place.

Just my $0.02.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by jmg

There is always room for improving the engine, or the way we propel our vehicles. Maybe electric is one of them.

Instant torque is a huge plus for EVs. My i3 is quicker off the line than my F80 M3 despite a 200+ lb-ft advantage because it's instant.

New technology is often more expensive until we build an infrastructure that supports more and more efficient manufacturing processes. Market competition will motivate the manufacturer to innovate to lower production costs once they have fully committed to the EV.

Have you driven an i3, i8, Tesla, or even a Bolt? They are great cars, and these are the pioneers. It will only get better and better. I'm not saying I will not miss my ICE performance cars like the M3 and 911, and as much as I love my M3, when I drive my i3, I see how much potential the future has for EVs . It's not a bad place.

Just my $0.02.

All good points. I wasnt saying current EVs arent great. But they are still relatively new and when I say improve I mean their range primarily. I would like to not have to worry about charging my car every night. Obviously, like you said, we can always improve and as I stated earlier I am excited to see where we go with it.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

All good points. I wasnt saying current EVs arent great. But they are still relatively new and when I say improve I mean their range primarily. I would like to not have to worry about charging my car every night. Obviously, like you said, we can always improve and as I stated earlier I am excited to see where we go with it.

Batteries are getting cheaper and as soon as batteries are cheap enough it will be too expensive to build an ICE car.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

All good points. I wasnt saying current EVs arent great. But they are still relatively new and when I say improve I mean their range primarily. I would like to not have to worry about charging my car every night. Obviously, like you said, we can always improve and as I stated earlier I am excited to see where we go with it.

Right now my i3 with a DC charges to almost full in 30 minutes. Plugging in at night is also not a big deal. It's a lot easier than going to the gas station, and as easy as plugging in your phone every night to charge.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by jmg

Right now my i3 with a DC charges to almost full in 30 minutes. Plugging in at night is also not a big deal. It's a lot easier than going to the gas station, and as easy as plugging in your phone every night to charge.

Yeah and you don't have to touch the disgusting gasoline pump handles.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ORIGIN M.

Yeah and you don't have to touch the disgusting gasoline pump handles.

And you don't have to worry about dropping fuel on your paint.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by jmg

And you don't have to worry about dropping fuel on your paint.

Exactly.

[antzcrashing]

Its insulting when these tech and car companies say range anxiety will be eliminated if they create 300-400+ mile electric cars. Range of the car is only half the equation, charging time and charging availability are the other factors, and I highly doubt those will be solved by even 2025. BMW is all talk but its very clear that they are treading lightly and would be perfectly happy if this electric car thing was just a passing fad. Tesla will reap either the benefits or the perils- at this point your guess is as good as mine.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Its insulting when these tech and car companies say range anxiety will be eliminated if they create 300-400+ mile electric cars. Range of the car is only half the equation, charging time and charging availability are the other factors, and I highly doubt those will be solved by even 2025. BMW is all talk but its very clear that they are treading lightly and would be perfectly happy if this electric car thing was just a passing fad. Tesla will reap either the benefits or the perils- at this point your guess is as good as mine.

It's not a fad. This is it folks. Technology WILL get better, charging times will get better, capacity will get better. This is new, and there will be growing pains and people groaning over change. I was in that boat last year, totally anti-hybrid/electric. Then I got one and it changed my perspective. Again, with a DC charger it only takes 30 min to get 90 miles of range for most EVs and this is still in it's infancy.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by jmg

with a DC charger it only takes 30 min to get 90 miles of range for most EVs

Why put up with this when I can refuel a 5 Series in 5 min and achieve 400 miles of range? :

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Why put up with this when I can refuel a 5 Series in 5 min and achieve 400 miles of range? :

$4-5k less a year in gas. Not to mention it has zero emissions. Those are just reasons, may not be your reasons (nothing wrong with your logic/reasoning) but those are reasons.