My Big Fat Geek Wording - More ICE vs. EV debate

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by jmg

It's not a fad. This is it folks. Technology WILL get better, charging times will get better, capacity will get better. This is new, and there will be growing pains and people groaning over change. I was in that boat last year, totally anti-hybrid/electric. Then I got one and it changed my perspective. Again, with a DC charger it only takes 30 min to get 90 miles of range for most EVs and this is still in it's infancy.

Its not it yet, electric cars are still the vast vast minority. Until they are the majority, its just a fun fantasy. Long way to go

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

In that case, look out automotive world, because I am embarking on a historic undertaking to design an engine with no less that double that - 10,000 freaking parts! Yes, you read it correctly - that's ten thousand! And you know what that means, right? If 5000 parts mean technology, 10,000 parts means technocracy! I am going to science the absolute sh*t out of this!

But that's only the beginning. My ultimate goal is to design and conceive a vehicle that is 100% mechanical, consisting of no less than 100 million parts!

How will I do this, you may ask? Well, the master plan is to replace all electronics with mechanical equivalents. In much the same way that microchip fabricators cram millions of transistors (even billions now) onto a piece of silicon, I intend to mount millions of microscopic mechanical switches into boxes that create what is in essence a mechanical computer. It is going to be epic, and it is going to change everything!

But it does not stop at the ECU. We must mechanize the entirety of the vehicle! There will be all manner of levers, pulleys, gears, bearings, shafts, push-me-pull-yous, whatzits, futzits, nut zits? (I hope not!), doohickeys, thing-a-ma-bobs, widgets, fidgets, and bridgets (yes, *female* fidgets!). All of these, clacking and clanking, bumping and banging, happily along in a beautiful symphony of noisy nonsense! Wiring is now linkage and cabling and even body panels move up-and-down and all-around just because we can do it - certainly for no good reason whatsoever, that's for sure.

I am telling you - nothing electrical remains. Even the headlights and tail lights will be mechanical. I'm not sure how that's possible or what that even means, but my team of researchers is working on it as we speak. They've already developed mechanical fire, whip cream, and radiation. So light is next up, and we are close!

One seat in this wondrous world of wacky, mechanized machinations will make you feel like you've zoomed straight into the 22nd century! Its coming soon, and its going to make you freak out, set off some diesel fireworks, and post paintings to the mechanical internet from your rotary cell phone!

Wooo!

I guess that you did not read what I have replied to, and not read the text carefully to get my point. It is not about the number of the parts, it is about the evolution of the vehicle. After 200 years an ICE have tremendous capabilities. Yet, an electric car is the same as 200 years ago, a motor plus battery) except with modern materials. Or the evolution of the combustion engine and car as a whole came a long way. The ICE vehicles evolved tremendously, the electric car is just a mummy pulled out of the tomb.

Glad that you brought up the electronic chip analogy; how many components are in one chip?
Thank you!

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by jmg

I don't find it a big deal to plug in. For some reason you do. Why?

Yeah, except out there in the wild, nobody can bring you a jug of power. Just as a note, I hate even charging my phone everyday, so I have a phone that requires charging once a week. More freedom to me. Yes, I hate plugging something every day. What am I? The slave of the car? I fill it in 5 minutes and I am ready for my 1000 km free of worries.

Depending on something to be ready for you is absolutely awful. Being unable to go in the wild, leave the vehicle there for 2 weeks and ready to start when you are back from the woods is terrible.

Anyway, do not worry, once all of you will jump electric, you will be charged accordingly. It is just the beginning. Nothing is free.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Its not it yet, electric cars are still the vast vast minority. Until they are the majority, its just a fun fantasy. Long way to go

I'm not sure where you are from, but here in LA, its not a small minority at all. Chargers are everywhere, I see dozen and dozens of EVs on my commute every day. At least here in CA, where there is a state agenda to embrace EVs, it's only getting more and more common. Eventually, once the major cities pave the way for a good plan for infrastructure, others will follow. Maybe not out in the sticks, but highly populated areas. Which is fine. These are city cars. Maybe one day we can get 300 miles out of a 5 minute charge and the ICE will all but disappear.

It's not a "fantasy", the flying car is a "fantasy". Once upon a time autonomous driving was a "fantasy" and now it's a reality. That's the spirit of human ingenuity.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by ORIGIN M.

This guy is ignorant!

Extremely informative and enlightening post!

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Is this any different than saying no turbo car has the soul of a higher reviving, naturally aspirated car? Or EPS vs HPS, or a manual vs a flappy paddle?

Tl;dr Get off my lawn!!!

Yes, automotive emotions.
Do you like spices in a well cooked meal, or do you prefer a bar for dinner?
Both will address your hunger.

Do you appreciate the journey or the destination? Should I continue?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Yeah, except out there in the wild, nobody can bring you a jug of power. Just as a note, I hate even charging my phone everyday, so I have a phone that requires charging once a week. More freedom to me. Yes, I hate plugging something every day. What am I? The slave of the car? I fill it in 5 minutes and I am ready for my 1000 km free of worries.

Depending on something to be ready for you is absolutely awful. Being unable to go in the wild, leave the vehicle there for 2 weeks and ready to start when you are back from the woods is terrible.

Anyway, do not worry, once all of you will jump electric, you will be charged accordingly. It is just the beginning. Nothing is free.

Different tools for different tasks. Does that mean EVs are worthless flights of fantasy? No, that's ridiculous and frankly narrow minded. These are city cars. If you want to take your Jeep on a camping trip, go right ahead. I don't need a jeep to go to work and back. Different tools. Different tasks.

As far as the expenses, anyone with an inclination of economics knows that if there is a market, there is a way to get it to the most people to make the most profit. Energy companies will innovate to keep the balance between demand, price, and scarcity, just like it did for gas and oil. There was a time when oil was rare and expensive. Then we started getting creative.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Yes, automotive emotions.
Do you like spices in a well cooked meal, or do you prefer a bar for dinner?
Both will address your hunger.

Do you appreciate the journey or the destination? Should I continue?

These are subjective opinions and your opinion is not gospel nor are other people subjected to follow it. Do or don't buy an EV in the future that's your right. As is it other people's right to decide what works for them. You don't like it, that's fine. Don't assume to think your opinion fits the wants and needs of everyone else.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Extremely informative and enlightening post!

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Yes, automotive emotions.
Do you like spices in a well cooked meal, or do you prefer a bar for dinner?
Both will address your hunger.

Do you appreciate the journey or the destination? Should I continue?

What do you drive anyway? I bet I could criticize your vehicle a dozen times over based on MY wants and needs and not yours. And I would be totally wrong in doing so, just as you are now.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Yes, automotive emotions.
Do you like spices in a well cooked meal, or do you prefer a bar for dinner?
Both will address your hunger.

Do you appreciate the journey or the destination? Should I continue?

I like curry and I like a steak with nothing on it. Both have their place. I'm one of the curmudgeons that doesn't really like flat torque curves, turbos or an even number of pedals. So the delta between a boring, we're all the same anywho modern turbo and an EV is pretty slim to my particular brain.

About the destination, etc, I've owned a number of cars significantly faster than my NB Miata and my M Coupe, but for a track day, a drive on Glendora Mountain Road or Mulholland, those two cars remain the most involving and enjoyable, with an honorable mention to my dad's old FD RX7.

[ron_jeremy]

Originally Posted by Tracus

I guess that you did not read what I have replied to, and not read the text carefully to get my point. It is not about the number of the parts, it is about the evolution of the vehicle. After 200 years an ICE have tremendous capabilities. Yet, an electric car is the same as 200 years ago, a motor plus battery) except with modern materials. Or the evolution of the combustion engine and car as a whole came a long way. The ICE vehicles evolved tremendously, the electric car is just a mummy pulled out of the tomb.

True, but one would think that in beeing such a mature tech as the ICE is, and this we can agree on.
The ICE is scaringly unefficient!
The petrol ICE is around 30% effective, diesel is in the 40% area.
Meanwhile Bosch is saying they will get the electric engine up to about 92%.
These days, as you mention - as unexploited the EV is, we're looking at about 90% efficiency.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Tracus

I guess that you did not read what I have replied to, and not read the text carefully to get my point. It is not about the number of the parts, it is about the evolution of the vehicle.

Nah, I got your point, I was just having a little fun with it. The part of the statement I replied to didn't reinforce your hypothesis - it only hurt it because it is not objectively true. It's the type of thing a marketer would say about technology he or she does not understand. It's also the kind of desperation we hear when someone is trying to sell something that they know is headed quickly toward obsolescence.

After 200 years an ICE have tremendous capabilities. Yet, an electric car is the same as 200 years ago, a motor plus battery) except with modern materials. Or the evolution of the combustion engine and car as a whole came a long way. The ICE vehicles evolved tremendously, the electric car is just a mummy pulled out of the tomb.

That's right, actually! It turns out that the entire blueprint for both the Model S and the i3 was found just a few years ago etched on a cave wall in The Congo. But, it's actually three hundred years old, not two hundred. So, yes, it's very old tech using ancient designs and materials like super efficient motors, CFRP body shells, and silicon anode batteries, just like we used for horse drawn carriages back in the early 1800s and even the 1700s.

Glad that you brought up the electronic chip analogy; how many components are in one chip?

Depends - is it Nacho Cheese or Cool Ranch flavor?

Thank you!

You're welcome!

[c1pher]

Reading through this thread reminded me of when I plugged in the costs to charge my vehicle vs the gas costs. I was surprised to discover that I wasn’t going to save as much money as I thought. The disparity can become larger if gas prices are like $5 a gallon and I am able to charge for free. But someone somewhere is paying. I will have to do the calculator on Tesla’s site again and will post a screenshot.

[RABAUKE]

Originally Posted by MGM135is

Reading through this thread reminded me of when I plugged in the costs to charge my vehicle vs the gas costs. I was surprised to discover that I wasn’t going to save as much money as I thought. The disparity can become larger if gas prices are like $5 a gallon and I am able to charge for free. But someone somewhere is paying. I will have to do the calculator on Tesla’s site again and will post a screenshot.

Were paying $5/gallon in Canada right now.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by RABAUKE

Were paying $5/gallon in Canada right now.

Five of your little, anemic dollars though, not five good ol' Chinese backed 'Murcan dollars.

[c1pher]

To be clear it is somewhat less expensive to charge your car than pay for gas. And the pricing differentials change if electricity or gas prices change accordingly, just common sense. However, this is what the Tesla energy cost calculator says:

I adjusted electricity lower to 11 (default is $0.12) cents per kw. I looked up my rates for Virginia. They also estimate the fuel costs at 21 mpg. I was cross shopping a Toyota Avalon and the Tesla so had to modify the math to 40mpg. I drive 80 miles round trip four times a week....I was being generous in saying I drive 52 weeks a year to work although I don’t.

After I did the math, I would only save $343 in annual energy costs at $2.30 per gallon which is higher than current gas prices. The Avalon cost $38k loaded. The Tesla cost well over $70k for the base model at the time. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that you won’t own the car long enough (93 years) to reach a break even point to make it financially worthwhile to drive a Tesla. That doesn’t include increased property taxes due to the higher cost of the Tesla. Now if you just want one, that’s a different story.

[c1pher]

By the way, the current entry price for the Model S is $88k.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

....
You're welcome!

You know, from a moderator I was expecting a different kind of approach... like objectivism? So instead of having a proper discussion, we resume everything to low level jokes and arrogance.
It's ok, nobody's perfect and I just can't go that low...

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by MGM135is

To be clear it is somewhat less expensive to charge your car than pay for gas. And the pricing differentials change if electricity or gas prices change accordingly, just common sense. However, this is what the Tesla energy cost calculator says:

I adjusted electricity lower to 11 (default is $0.12) cents per kw. I looked up my rates for Virginia. They also estimate the fuel costs at 21 mpg. I was cross shopping a Toyota Avalon and the Tesla so had to modify the math to 40mpg. I drive 80 miles round trip four times a week....I was being generous in saying I drive 52 weeks a year to work although I don’t.

After I did the math, I would only save $343 in annual energy costs at $2.30 per gallon which is higher than current gas prices. The Avalon cost $38k loaded. The Tesla cost well over $70k for the base model at the time. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that you won’t own the car long enough (93 years) to reach a break even point to make it financially worthwhile to drive a Tesla. That doesn’t include increased property taxes due to the higher cost of the Tesla. Now if you just want one, that’s a different story.

Yeah, but the only thing an Avalon and a Tesla have in common is roughly their size. Power, speed, features, even dynamics favor the Tesla heavily. Maybe if you compared the Tesla Model S to a Lexus GSF you'd have a fair comparison.

You're also discounting oil changes, maintenance and other operating costs that again heavily favor the Tesla in this comparison.

[RABAUKE]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Five of your little, anemic dollars though, not five good ol' Chinese backed 'Murcan dollars.

oh yeah, our Prime Minister used to be a snow board instructor.....part time eh.

[RABAUKE]

Jaguar E type- "E" is for electric. This might be the only EV I'd consider.

http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1420400