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      04-24-2015, 12:34 PM   #23
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This was totally avoidable. It's the overtaking car's responsibility to execute a safe pass. He should have anticipated that the lead car would go into the apex. No way the overtaking car should have dove in there unless he was absolutely sure the lead car was giving him the apex. Dumb.
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      04-24-2015, 05:57 PM   #24
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Both at fault. Shit happens, try to not make it happen. Hope the one(s?) in the Clio are ok.
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      04-24-2015, 06:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserPower View Post
It is always the overtaking one's responsibility to find a line to safely overtake the car in the front. The one in front does not even have to move out of the line unless the car in front receives a blue flag in a racing event. The one in the back is definitely at fault as his car is not even in front when the collision happened.
It's a public road; there is no racing event going on here. You wouldn't cut across lanes to take the racing line on the autobahn, would you? Slow cars stay to the right.

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Originally Posted by AW335TT View Post
Rookie move, anyone who has taken any racing course should know the car in front has the racing line and if you want to pass you must go around, not squeeze in between. I don't think that is a pass a experienced driver would have done in that situation.

Again, not a race; they are driving on a public road where German road laws apply.
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      04-24-2015, 07:57 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rated M Roadster View Post
It's a public road; there is no racing event going on here. You wouldn't cut across lanes to take the racing line on the autobahn, would you? Slow cars stay to the right.




Again, not a race; they are driving on a public road where German road laws apply.
You can skew it as much as you can to force it into a public road category but in the end, this is a race track. On a race track, unless situation dictates otherwise, the race line IS the normal driving line, just as lanes on a highway marked with white dash lines. The Clio was sticking to the normal driving line, just as anyone would drive between white dash lines on a highway, and he only temporarily moved out of the normal driving line to let others pass. The following car is the one who cut across the "lane" and caused an accident. You would not expect someone to deviate from race line by too much on a race track, just as you would not expect someone driving on a highway to deviate from the lane he is in by too much. If one does not understand this and caused an accident, it is this person's fault. He only gets the right of way if his driver's seat is in front of the Clio.
If you really want to stick to the public road rule, there should not be any passing on a one way one lane road.
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      04-24-2015, 08:34 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rated M Roadster
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserPower View Post
It is always the overtaking one's responsibility to find a line to safely overtake the car in the front. The one in front does not even have to move out of the line unless the car in front receives a blue flag in a racing event. The one in the back is definitely at fault as his car is not even in front when the collision happened.
It's a public road; there is no racing event going on here. You wouldn't cut across lanes to take the racing line on the autobahn, would you? Slow cars stay to the right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AW335TT View Post
Rookie move, anyone who has taken any racing course should know the car in front has the racing line and if you want to pass you must go around, not squeeze in between. I don't think that is a pass a experienced driver would have done in that situation.

Again, not a race; they are driving on a public road where German road laws apply.
Yes, legally on public days the laws of a toll road with no speed limits apply, but no one goes on that road to use it as a public road. It's used as a track and if you're going to use it as a race track, you should follow proper track etiquette. You don't go on the ring to drive around in circle in 1 lane, you go on it to use it as a track.
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      04-25-2015, 04:03 AM   #28
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Exclamation Rules of the 'Ring

Here is an old(2011) price list for the 'Ring and more importantly the RULES for driving on the 'Ring!
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      04-25-2015, 11:17 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserPower View Post
You can skew it as much as you can to force it into a public road category but in the end, this is a race track.
From this I can tell that you have not been to the ring.
The clio is clearly at fault.
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      04-25-2015, 01:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
From this I can tell that you have not been to the ring.
The clio is clearly at fault.
So does the ring operate contrary to every other track on the planet?
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      04-25-2015, 01:21 PM   #31
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The Nurburgring Staff is clearly at fault.....for allowing a douchebag in a FREAKIN' Clio on the track!
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      04-25-2015, 01:25 PM   #32
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If all cars on the ring always stayed in 2 completely separate lanes, fast on the left, slow on the right and no one ever used the entire track on public days, I would fault the slower car. Camera car and cars in front are clearly using the road as a track.
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      04-25-2015, 02:08 PM   #33
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Ziet er niet best uit.
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      04-25-2015, 02:17 PM   #34
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Public day + lots of cars + different levels of experience + overtaking on corners and braking zone will eventually end in an accident.

All accidents between two cars I have seen on track have been in corners and the braking zone.

Much prefer the above type of driving on a trackdays that are well marshalled and throw people off for doing silly things. Iirc Jonny of book a track fame, threw a few people off the ring trackday for braking the rules.
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      04-26-2015, 11:23 AM   #35
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Tourist driving days (Touristenfahren) are exactly that, TOURIST DRIVING DAYS(TDD). Even on Hockenheim, which is a GP course, same thing applies. Slower traffic keeps to the right. If an accident occurs, like the Clio one, Polizei comes out and investigates. Biggest thing and is also briefed to people renting cars to run the track like the RentRaceCar.de and the rules are inside the vehicle.....check your mirrors and if a car is coming faster than you you MOVE TO THE RIGHT.

Passing is to be done on the left as per road rules. You are caught or reported as passing on the right and you can say bye bye to a great day at the 'ring because you will be banned for the day and possibly more.

Now, blame in this incident can easily go 50/50 because

1. The GTR did not anticipate the Clio's intentions........and

2. The Clio, knowing it was the slower car, did not signal that it was staying right and did not check it's mirrors to ensure other faster cars were not coming.

On TDD's, there are not many, if any marshalls. So it is really up to people driving the 'Ring to report incidents. Last year I had a psycho french chick that passed me on the right right before Breitscheid like there was a championship trophy waiting for her at the end. 3 kilometers later, as a TT-RS passed me and was coming up on her, She pulled right and then dove into the 45% turn and tapped the TT-RS in the back. Needless to say, Polizei came, investigated and determined she was in the wrong and was banned for a week from the 'Ring.

People coming from different parts of the world and even Europe need to learn and understand the TDD rules when it comes to driving on the 'Ring. And people thinking that TDD's are trackdays need to understand the difference between both here because on a trackday, there is no toll and the track is completely open where you can do a complete lap, is fully marshalled and can pass on either side.
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      04-26-2015, 01:11 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
So does the ring operate contrary to every other track on the planet?
Yes.

You see bus coaches, campervans, normal vans, volvo estate cars etc.
Between porsche 911 GT3 rs (loads of them!), radicals, lamborghini's etc.

I'd say any given time the mix is 50% who have a jahreskarte or similar experience, and 50% is first or 2nd timer (so first or 2nd lap).

Especially on Saturday and Sunday's in the summer season it's really 'touristenfahrten'.

When I was there last autumn, I was in a traffic jam of about 1,5hrs, just to drive 1 lap. It can be that crowded.
I know of no track in the world that is similar to thàt.
It is nothing like any other racetrack. And not only because of the track, but also of the scale, the popularity/appeal etc etc.

That's why they emphasize so much that it's not a race, that you have to keep to the RIGHT, and that you hàve to let faster drivers pass(on left side) as soon as the situation lets you.

It's a very dangerous track.
The gtr may have picked a dangerous point to overtake, but the previous cars also overtook, the clio went to the right, but slammed the door for the gtr. He may not have seen that car.
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      04-26-2015, 02:34 PM   #37
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Interesting. I can see situations though where slower car trys to apex corners like the clio and if you have to choose not to mid corner means running wide and off the track. Either choice is poor and thus you are relying on the faster car not to dive inside you or expect you crash to the outside just to help his lap time.
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      04-26-2015, 03:16 PM   #38
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^and that is the problem.
A GTR is obviously much faster than that clio, and taking a corner at a certain speed might be very slow for a gtr, but very fast for the clio and thus having to steer towards the apex.

But still normal road rules apply, and that means that you cannot swerve from one side to another while being overtaken.

It's a very delicate balance, and because the track is very narrow/curvy, crowded, long (not easy to learn), full of blind corners/blind bumps, and novice and expert, fast and slow all drive at the same time, it's dangerous.
You constantly have to be on your qui-vive and aware of the cars around you.

Maybe to prevent this one could make the rule that you cannot overtake in or in the vicinity of corners. But with 73 corners or so that takes up pretty much the whole circuit (and when is it a corner and when not).

I'm guessing that on the current ruleset a lot of people with a hell of a lot of experience have thought a long long time.

That's why almost all insurance companies have stated in their fine printing that crashes on the ring are excluded of damage payout...
At least in Europe.
That's why who is to blame is of less concern. As long as there are no real personal injuries, everybody has to pay for their own damage. That should set the gtr guy thinking if overtaking in that short corner is a good idea and set the clio guy thinking if he's aware enough of his surrounding traffic.
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      04-26-2015, 03:21 PM   #39
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the Green Hell...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post

...It's a very delicate balance, and because the track is very narrow/curvy, crowded, long (not easy to learn), full of blind corners/blind bumps, and novice and expert, fast and slow all drive at the same time, it's dangerous.
You constantly have to be on your qui-vive and aware of the cars around you.

You left out the freaky weather at the 'Ring. The track is so large(spread out), built in the Eifel mountains... that one part of the track can be nice and sunny while the other "side" has rain/sleet/snow/fog!!! And those curbs are like ICE when they are wet or cold in the mornings its quite treacherous. They don't call it the "Green Hell" for nothing!
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      04-27-2015, 11:05 AM   #40
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Reminds me of high-end sailboat racing. You may know exactly what you're doing, but, when the other boat coming towards you has RENT ME written in big letters on the sail, the smartest thing to do is change course and stay as far away as possible.
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      04-27-2015, 12:10 PM   #41
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He was probably on a fast lap he wanted to brag about down the pub to his mates. The place does my head on. I personally hate it.
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      04-27-2015, 04:48 PM   #42
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Do you even Ring bro?
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      07-20-2015, 09:22 PM   #43
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When you decide to pass go for it. You don't have time to think should I do it or not. He had enough room to make the pass but decide to brake right next to him.
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      07-21-2015, 08:41 PM   #44
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When I ran track days, even though I was allowed to run in the expert class, and my car was WAY faster than most every other car on the track, I usually chose to run in the intermdiate groups that required wave-by's.

I never set any blistering lap times, but it was nice to know the guy you were passing knew you were there.

In the expert groups, you DID have more super fast cars, and wave-by's weren't mandatory. I had some scary moments when passing because the guy I was passing didn't know i was there, lots of close calls, both by myself and other cars.

Someday I'd love to drive the "ring" but wow, it looks pretty treacherous.
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