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      02-20-2016, 06:06 PM   #23
lemetier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbs600
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
Back in 2014 when the notices first went out. 2G Service (for cars with HU_CCC or HU_CIC) has already been taken down in major metropolitan areas.

How is it reprehensible on BMW's part that AT&T is shutting down 2G & 3G networks? They introduced new hardware before the announcement was made.

Just because no hardware resolution is officially available doesn't mean they don't exist. Some cars will be easier than others. The question is, how much would an affected party be willing to pay? $300-$500? Over $2000?

The mention of lawsuits is pretty disgusting and only renews the typical frivolous litigation stereotype that exists. The agreement between the parties is no less than solid and precedent in the matter has been established by the courts. Binding arbitration with AAA as the Arbitrator is as far as it would go.

Every car I've had since these services were introduced have been equipped with it and I've used it precisely Zero times. How will we ever survive without it?
If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem, and your arrogant comment that “Every car I've had since these services were introduced have been equipped with it and I've used it precisely Zero times. How will we ever survive without it?” followed by a sigh reveals your naivety. I suppose you’ll sigh as well when upside down and unable to reach your phone or, even better, when your airbag fails to deploy and you crack your head.

Legalese does not absolve BMW. If you would’ve taken a moment to read the posts above, you’d see how this is on BMW, especially since our vehicles are able to dial 911, but BMW restricts same, even in light of BMW Assist suspension. In fact, the FCC requires all cell phones – even those not connected to a plan – to be able to dial 911, our cars being no different. Enjoy your G12 and safe travels, my friend.
It's not arrogance nor naïveté, rather it's awareness of self preservation and the acceptance of risk that exists in life. Sure it's a comforting thought to know its there, but reality is the overall outcome improvement between having a telematics system or not is between 0.5% and 10%, and most likely lies in the quartile of that range.

Legalese does absolve BMW, just as it protects you and me to the best extent possible. BMW Assist, nor any embedded vehicle telematics system, does NOT and never has established a direct connection to 911. The most it does is connects to an operator at a call center, who then determines whether or not notification to emergency responders is required. If one wants to use the FCC Regulations regarding wireless devices and the requirement that a device must allow an emergency call to be placed regardless of paid service, cannot dismiss the specificity of the requirement such that it's applicability extends only to devices capable of establishing a signal to the existing wireless network.

What does exist and will be required by regulators soon, is a vehicle occupant's wireless device, with an active data connection to the vehicle, be utilized to establish a direct connection with and transmit onboard information directly to 911 call centers in the event of a collision via voice or SMS Message.

Like Eldridge Cleaver said, "There is no more neutrality in the world. You either have to be part of the solution, or you're going to be part of the problem". The Gilligan Effect is not a solution.
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      02-20-2016, 06:19 PM   #24
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Obviously some people use these services more than others. I am what is known as a senior citizen, a retired lawyer, and I still have the need to periodically travel around L A at night. I have relied on Driver Assist on many of these occasions. I do not believe litigation is the answer but if someone is seriously injured I can foresee the likelihood. I have not reviewed the documents to see if binding arbitration is required. There have been many multi-million dollar awards from arbitration. This discussion of litigation or arbitration is not what will solve the problem. BMW should offer a workaround for its customers to assess whether that route should be followed. I went to the Palm Springs BMW dealer and the Sales Manager did not even know about this issue. That was yesterday. BMW is simply not taking this issue seriously.
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      02-20-2016, 06:22 PM   #25
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When I push the SOS button I get a connection to a 911 operator, not a third party that decides whether to connect me to a 911 operator.
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      02-20-2016, 08:07 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgcrockett1
Obviously some people use these services more than others. I am what is known as a senior citizen, a retired lawyer, and I still have the need to periodically travel around L A at night. I have relied on Driver Assist on many of these occasions. I do not believe litigation is the answer but if someone is seriously injured I can foresee the likelihood. I have not reviewed the documents to see if binding arbitration is required. There have been many multi-million dollar awards from arbitration. This discussion of litigation or arbitration is not what will solve the problem. BMW should offer a workaround for its customers to assess whether that route should be followed. I went to the Palm Springs BMW dealer and the Sales Manager did not even know about this issue. That was yesterday. BMW is simply not taking this issue seriously.

When I push the SOS button I get a connection to a 911 operator, not a third party that decides whether to connect me to a 911 operator.
A voice of reason.

Do you have a Bluetooth or USB connection to your mobile phone established when you press the button? If the TCU doesn't have a connection to the network itself but an external device is connected and has a signal, the Automatic Crash Notification and SOS button will initiate an emergency call through the device to a PSAP. This is not the same as BMW Assist, and is one interim safety solution some are crying foul over. The car has to have the proper Smartphone integration hardware, so not all vehicles are supported.

I acknowledge and understand that some use the service more than others. Frankly, you're exactly the demographic who's perspective is the most interesting to me. I've seen more money spent on defending frivolous suits in the Automotive industry than the lifetime earnings of every member of this forum combined. There are other service providers for the convenience aspects and I'd be happy to provide some to you. Hearing a legal professional agree litigation isn't a solution is quite nice for a change. Having lived in Rancho Mirage and commuting to Encino 7 days a week, know how desolate it is out there. For your navigation, RTTI comes in through satellite via TCU and/or Satellite Radio.

As to the contractual terms, the most relevant are below. The precedent over this type of situation has long been established. Back in 2002, Volkswagen/Audi partnered with OnStar to provide a telematics and communication service for the 2004 A8 and subsequently other models. This used an internal analog connection box with an optional GM Proprietary Motorola V60 Phone with Verizon Service. Just as the first cars were to arrive, FCC allowed the sun setting of analog networks, VW and GM severed ties, and anyone with the system were stuck, as one couldn't supplement the the internal or separate V60 with their own device. If the situation here was similar, I wouldn't blink at the notion of litigation.

10. Responsibility in Emergency Situations. When our service provider receives an emergency signal from your vehicle, our service provider will attempt to determine if an emergency exists. If so deemed, the service provider will attempt to contact you and the appropriate public safety access point (PSAP) to request assistance and may also attempt to call one of your third party emergency contacts. Neither BMW nor its service provider guarantee that the service provider will actually receive an emergency signal or call from your vehicle or that the service provider will successfully contact the appropriate emergency agency or your third party emergency contacts if it does receive an emergency signal or call, or that emergency personnel will respond to the call or locate your vehicle. Neither BMW, its service provider nor the Underlying Wireless Carrier is responsible for any failure or delay of a PSAP in responding to an emergency or for the quality of service delivered, whether the failure is the fault of BMW, the service provider, the Underlying Wireless Carrier or any other third party service provider. You release BMW, the service provider, the Underlying Wireless Carrier and any other third party service providers from all liabilities and losses (including physical injury or death) that you or others may suffer in an emergency situation.

14. Disclaimer of Warranties. Your vehicle's limited warranty includes the BMW Assist Unit in your vehicle, but does not cover the BMW Assist Services or the wireless service. NEITHER BMW, THE SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER, NOR ANY OTHER

THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY MAKES ANY WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, REGARDING THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES (INCLUDING ANY CONTENT OR OTHER INFORMATION DELIVERED TO YOU AS PART OF THE SERVICES), OR THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER'S WIRELESS SERVICE, INCLUDING ANY WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. ALL WARRANTIES WITH RESPECT TO THE SERVICES AND THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER'S WIRELESS SERVICE ARE EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED.

15. Limitations of Liability.

a. The BMW Assist Services are provided to you merely as a convenience and are not intended as a substitute for insurance. The amount of fees for BMW Assist Services are not related to the value of your vehicle or its contents or to the potential cost of any injury or loss suffered by you or anyone else. You should obtain and maintain adequate insurance covering such injuries and losses. YOU AGREE TO RELEASE BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER AND ALL OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARIES FROM ANY AND ALL CLAIMS, LIABILITIES AND LOSSES IN CONNECTION WITH THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO CLAIMS FOR PERSONAL INJURY OR PROPERTY DAMAGE ARISING FROM THE TOTAL OR PARTIAL FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE OF THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES, EVEN IF CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER, ANY THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY, OR THE MALFUNCTION OF THE BMW ASSIST UNIT. YOU AGREE TO INDEMNIFY BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER, AND ALL OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARIES AGAINST ALL SUCH CLAIMS, LIABILITIES AND LOSSES BROUGHT BY THIRD PARTIES. YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT THIS RELEASE EXTENDS TO ANY PARTY CLAIMING UNDER YOU AND THAT NO INSURANCE COMPANY WILL HAVE ANY RIGHT OF SUBROGATION. b. NEITHER BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER NOR ANY THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY WILL BE LIABLE TO YOU OR ANY OTHER PARTY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES (INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION LOST PROFITS) IN CONNECTION WITH THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES OR THE BMW ASSIST UNIT, EVEN IF BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER OR THE OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY ARE AWARE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. THESE LIMITATIONS APPLY TO ALL CLAIMS, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, CLAIMS IN CONTRACT AND TORT (SUCH AS NEGLIGENCE, PRODUCT LIABILITY AND STRICT LIABILITY). SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THOSE PARTICULAR LIMITATIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. c. IF BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER OR ANY OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY IS FOUND LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY REASON, YOU AGREE THAT THE AGGREGATE LIABILITY OF ALL THESE PARTIES TO YOU FOR ANY CLAIM IS LIMITED TO THE TOTAL AMOUNT PAID BY YOU FOR THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES DURING THE 12 MONTHS PRECEDING THE DATE YOUR CLAIM AROSE. YOU AGREE THAT NEITHER BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER NOR ANY OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY WOULD HAVE AGREED TO PROVIDE THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES TO YOU IF YOU DID NOT AGREE TO THIS LIMITATION. THIS AMOUNT IS THE SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE LIABILITY OF BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER AND ANY OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARIES TO YOU, AND IS PAYABLE AS LIQUIDATED DAMAGES AND NOT AS A PENALTY. IN THE EVENT YOU WISH TO OBTAIN A GREATER AMOUNT ON THIS LIMITATION, YOU HAVE THE OPTION TO PURCHASE SUCH GREATER AMOUNT BY PAYING AN ADDITIONAL MONTHLY AMOUNT AND A RIDER SHALL BE ATTACHED TO THIS AGREEMENT SETTING FORTH THE ADDITIONAL CHARGE AND ADDITIONAL AMOUNT OF THE LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. EXCEPT WHERE PROHIBITED BY LAW, YOU MAY NOT BRING ANY CLAIM AGAINST BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER OR ANY OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY MORE THAN ONE YEAR AFTER THE CLAIM ARISES.

16. Arbitration. IF A CONTROVERSY, DISPUTE, OR CLAIM, WHETHER BASED ON CONTRACT, TORT, STATUTE, OR OTHER LEGAL OR EQUITABLE THEORY (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY CLAIM OF FRAUD, MISREPRESENTATION, OR FRAUDULENT INDUCEMENT) ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO THIS AGREEMENT, TO ANY BREACH HEREOF, OR TO ANY TORTUOUS, CONDUCT OCCURRING, WHETHER BY ACTION OR INACTION, IN THE PERFORMANCE OF OR FAILURE TO PERFORM ANY OBLIGATION HEREUNDER, YOU AGREE THAT THE MATTER SHALL BE SETTLED BY INDEPENDENT ARBITRATION INVOLVING A NEUTRAL ARBITRATOR AND ADMINISTERED BY THE AMERICAN ARBITRATION ASSOCIATION (AAA) IN ACCORDANCE WITH ITS COMMERCIAL ARBITRATION RULES, AS MODIFIED BY THIS AGREEMENT AND JUDGMENT ON THE AWARD RENDERED BY THE ARBITRATOR MAY BE ENTERED IN ANY COURT HAVING JURISDICTION THEREOF. ARBITRATION IS NOT A COURT PROCEEDING. THE RULES OF ARBITRATION DIFFER FROM THE RULES OF COURT. THERE IS NO JUDGE AND JURY IN AN ARBITRATION PROCEEDING. NO ARBITRATOR HAS AUTHORITY TO AWARD RELIEF IN EXCESS OF WHAT THIS AGREEMENT PROVIDES. IN THE EVENT THE FOREGOING ARBITRATION REQUIREMENTS DO NOT APPLY, YOU WAIVE TO THE FULLEST EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW, ANY TRIAL BY JURY AND A JUDGE WILL DECIDE ANY AND ALL DISPUTES. NOTWITHSTANDING THE ABOVE, EITHER PARTY MAY SEEK FROM ANY COURT HAVING JURISDICTION HEREOF, ANY INTERIM, PROVISIONAL OR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF THAT MAY BE NECESSARY TO PROTECT THE RIGHTS OR PROPERTY OF ANY PARTY OR TO MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER THE PENDENCY OF THE ARBITRATION. THE INSTITUTION AND MAINTENANCE OF ANY JUDICIAL ACTION OR PROCEEDING FOR ANY SUCH INTERIM, PROVISIONAL OR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF SHALL NOT CONSTITUTE A WAIVER OF THE RIGHT OR OBLIGATION OF EITHER PARTY TO SUBMIT THE DISPUTE TO ARBITRATION

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      02-21-2016, 12:44 PM   #27
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If you read the earlier posts you will see that my connection cannot be through my cell phone on either a blue tooth or a usb connection. I have no idea how it connects. I do not even know the location of the 911 operator I contacted. When I discovered I had been connected to a 911 operator, I apologized for pushing the wrong button and disconnected as quickly as possible so as to not take up resources that may be needed on a real emergency. Obviously BMW hires very competent counsel who made the language (insofar as possible) require arbitration. There are cases that go both ways as to whether that language is enforceable although the majority of courts find arbitration provisions are valid and binding. That is not the issue for me. My issue is the lack of BMW's efforts to provide better customer service for a car that is 4 years old and was fairly expensive. Clearly technology changes, but there should be a real effort to avoid penalizing customers who relied on technology that constituted at least in part the reason for this purchase. I expect better customer service in this circumstance.

Last edited by sgcrockett1; 02-21-2016 at 03:32 PM.. Reason: typos
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      02-21-2016, 04:01 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgcrockett1
If you read the earlier posts you will see than my connection cannot be through my cell phone on either a blue tooth or a usb connection. I have no idea how it connects. I do not even know the location of the 911 operator I contacted. When I discovered I had been connected to a 911 operator, I apologized for pushing the wrong button and disconnected as quickly as possible so as to not take up resources that may be needed on a real emergency. Obviously BMW hires very competent counsel who made the language (insofar as possible) require arbitration. There are cases that go both ways as to whether that language is enforceable although the majority of courts find arbitration provisions are valid and binding. That is not the issue for me. My issue is the lack of BMW's efforts to provide better customer service for a car that is 4 years old and was fairly expensive. Clearly technology changes, but there should be a real effort to avoid penalizing customers who relied on technology that constituted at least in part the reason for this purchase. I expect better customer service in this circumstance.
My apologies for missing that reply where you stated the phone wasn't connected. What is occurring is the phone number associated with the 2g SIM card installed in the car has been reclaimed by the wireless provider but the TCU is still able to connect to a 2G network and make an outgoing eCall to a PASP, just as an external mobile phone with no active account can still initiate an emergency call if it has a connection to the network.

As to the other points, BMW's efforts to provide resolution are a matter of personal opinion. They have been and will continue to work and implement fixes. This is not the first time BMW Assist has encountered this problem, however this instance is far more complex due to the number of different Telematics and Infotainment Systems affected.

Look at it from the opposite position. There are cars less than 4 years old (some less than 2) that are affected and covered under warranty. Those must be addressed first and any vehicles that can be updated outside of that range with the same fix will be given the opportunity as well. For older vehicles outside of the warranty period which require more complex fixes will follow; depending on the equipment, an entire retrofit of the Communications, Telematics, and iDrive systems could be a possibility.

It's not the kindest thought, but logistically its the manner in which it needs to flow. The 1st year purchase rate of BMW Assist outside of the free period is in the 70% range. After that, the customer purchase falls below 20%. It takes years to develop, test, gain regulatory approval (this is a communication device), manufacture, and finally distribute a hardware fix. They've only had about a year and a half to address the cars with 2G Systems and were suddenly hit with the 3G cars being affected as well.

What is certain, the hardware solution for any car outside of the 4 year warranty will be at the customers expense.
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      02-21-2016, 05:45 PM   #29
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You obviously have a great deal of knowledge and expertise regarding this issue. I can't fault what you have written and the decision tree is logical. I only wonder as to how much notice BMW has had about this issue. If the company knew in 2012, I would have liked to have some information about the potential. At least now I have some understanding as to how the SOS button communicates. If you don't mind my asking, how did you become so informed about these issues?
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      02-21-2016, 07:27 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgcrockett1
You obviously have a great deal of knowledge and expertise regarding this issue. I can't fault what you have written and the decision tree is logical. I only wonder as to how much notice BMW has had about this issue. If the company knew in 2012, I would have liked to have some information about the potential. At least now I have some understanding as to how the SOS button communicates. If you don't mind my asking, how did you become so informed about these issues?
21 years in the automotive industry as an employee of OEM/Dealers, consultant to OEM/Dealers, and assembly manufacturer and supplier to OEM and Aftermarket. It's the latter position where I use examples of supplier shortfalls to demonstrate not only to my employees, but to our clients what our philosophy is, and how our operations are conducted in comparison.

With electronic systems like these however, the time lines aren't generally favorable to incorporate rapid change. In 2012 when you acquired your car, BMW would not have known what the wireless service provider would be doing in 2014 when the announcement was made, let alone the 3-5 years prior when the hardware was developed. Because these components are supplied by outside vendors, vehicle OEM's are at their mercy just as the hardware suppliers are at the mercy of the service providers.

I don't believe the wireless carriers envisioned a >400% user increase in just over 3 years combined with an unimaginable use of streaming media services. Where as the dismantling of analog was purely a financial decision for wireless carriers, this recent issue is that the available frequencies simply cannot handle the amount of usage in a reliable manner with 2G, 3G, and soon 4G devices. The faster a device can transmit and receive data results in more available space on the network. LTE obviously is better and should last a bit longer, but eventually it too will no longer suffice. Until such time as it's safe to make an official announcement, the proprietary information will be closely guarded by those with the most financial gain at stake.

I can completely understand anyone's frustration over communication with Customer Service not having concrete answers. They shouldn't be bashed however, as they're faced with a wide range of inquiries every day. It would be akin to you having sufficient knowledge of every legal system, by memory, as to allow you to represent a party at any given moment, multiple times per day in varying jurisdictions, with nothing more than cliff notes available as a reference.

As unfortunate as this situation is, it could be far worse. I went through the Audi/OnStar debacle with not one, but two A8L's (over $240k out of pocket for the cars) simultaneously. The 4.2 was $5395 to have phone/media integration and handset, with the W12 "only" $895 for the phone handset, combined with service plans for both that were roughly double a standard device plan was. The moment the plug was pulled, no phone or media device could be connected, there were persistent warning messages along with a lovely bright red light constantly illuminated, and to put the frosting on the cake, Verizon wouldn't release us from the contracts. It was either keep paying for an unusable and unnecessary plan, or pay $500 each to early terminate.
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      02-22-2016, 10:47 AM   #31
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Thank you for the information. It has been very enlightening.
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      02-22-2016, 11:04 AM   #32
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miamiten, unlike sgcrockett1, most all affected vehicles’ SOS buttons do nothing now, and many owners are only asking for what’s right, yet your self-professed ‘indstury insider’ perspective fails to see this, and fails to see what actually is right.

While one can never write off the possibility of Donald Trump suing oneself, politics aside, your seemingly arbitrary pronouncements of numbers and figures while contradicting yourself appears to be deflection akin to that seen on the campaign trail.

Impossible for the system to dial 911(?), yet it can. Couldn’t have been envisioned(?), yet there’s precedent. Isn’t the fault of customer service(?), while the central issue is a business decision from the top down. Come on.

Correct me if wrong, but it's your sentiment that the great percentage of owners wouldn’t have renewed, so we should simply accept this or otherwise purchase a new car? Is that fair? You beg to differ that this is an important safety feature? You feel this matter is frivolous or trivial? Even the founding member of another board - an ardent enthusiast - sees this as wrong. There’s a button in our cars with a picture of a phone under which SOS is written. If one was not an ‘industry insider’ like yourself, knew nothing of this matter and were in an emergency, what would one’s reasonable expectation for the button be?

If you dig deeper you’ll find other threads from when these services were first rolled-out where it was determined that our cars have actual telephone numbers when these services are active (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47567), wherein it was suggested that refusal to permit dialing of 911 likely arose out of a business decision that doing so would limit renewal sales. Makes sense to me. What will come of this if reprogramming or retrofit is ultimately not provided?

What’s right is for there to have been advance notice and for there to have been transition to a solution with no lapse. That being water under the bridge, there should be either free of charge programming of the SOS button to dial 911 and/or a nominal charge for hardware retrofit, possibly below cost. This should not be done reluctantly, but promptly, in the best interests of all. Only other alternative would be the mandatory removal and replacement of SOS buttons with false ones on affected vehicles, with detailed explanation provided.

Prior to your chiming in - which I don’t find to be ‘straight talk’, as you suggested on another board - this thread was moving in advancement of the matter - namely, for the SOS button to be permitted to dial 911 - but your divisive tone took it in a different direction, your prerogative, surely.

So what do you propose? What do you think is feasible and is fair to those for whom reliable telematics was a factor in their purchase? We all don't have Rolls-Royce and Bentley in our garages, driveways, etc.

Yes, enlightening.

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      02-22-2016, 12:34 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbs600
miamiten, unlike sgcrockett1, most all affected vehicles’ SOS buttons do nothing now, and many owners are only asking for what’s right, yet your self-professed ‘indstury insider’ perspective fails to see this, and fails to see what actually is right.

While one can never write off the possibility of Donald Trump suing oneself, politics aside, your seemingly arbitrary pronouncements of numbers and figures while contradicting yourself appears to be deflection akin to that seen on the campaign trail.

Impossible for the system to dial 911(?), yet it can. Couldn’t have been envisioned(?), yet there’s precedent. Isn’t the fault of customer service(?), while the central issue is a business decision from the top down. Come on.

Correct me if wrong, but it's your sentiment that the great percentage of owners wouldn’t have renewed, so we should simply accept this or otherwise purchase a new car? Is that fair? You beg to differ that this is an important safety feature? You feel this matter is frivolous or trivial? Even the founding member of another board - an ardent enthusiast - sees this as wrong. There’s a button in our cars with a picture of a phone under which SOS is written. If one was not an ‘industry insider’ like yourself, knew nothing of this matter and were in an emergency, what would one’s reasonable expectation for the button be?

If you dig deeper you’ll find other threads from when these services were first rolled-out where it was determined that our cars have actual telephone numbers when these services are active (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47567), wherein it was suggested that refusal to permit dialing of 911 likely arose out of a business decision that doing so would limit renewal sales. Makes sense to me. What will come of this if reprogramming or retrofit is ultimately not provided?

What’s right is for there to have been advance notice and for there to have been transition to a solution with no lapse. That being water under the bridge, there should be either free of charge programming of the SOS button to dial 911 and/or a nominal charge for hardware retrofit, possibly below cost. This should not be done reluctantly, but promptly, in the best interests of all. Only other alternative would be the mandatory removal and replacement of SOS buttons with false ones on affected vehicles, with detailed explanation provided.

Prior to your chiming in - which I don’t find to be ‘straight talk’, as you suggested on another board - this thread was moving in advancement of the matter - namely, for the SOS button to be permitted to dial 911 - but your divisive tone took it in a different direction, your prerogative, surely.

So what do you propose? What do you think is feasible and is fair to those for whom reliable telematics was a factor in their purchase? We all don't have Rolls-Royce and Bentley in our garages, driveways, etc.

Yes, enlightening.
Difference of opinion is acceptable; personal attacks are another and are of no benefit to the community. If you communicate with Customer Support Advisors the same way as that reply, I'd leave you in the dark too.
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      02-22-2016, 12:47 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
Difference of opinion is acceptable; personal attacks are another and are of no benefit to the community
Oh please, Mr. "Voice of Reason", no attack meant.

Stating it as it is, as I'd like to get down to the bottom of this; would've thought all would too.

Other marketed and advertised BMW Assist services aside:

Do you not believe the SOS button should be permitted to dial 911 directly?

Our cars are capable, and an interpretation of FCC rules may require same.

How difficult or costly could a dealer or over-the-air programming be?

And I too had a Motorola V60, and may have been one of the first and one of the last to have same.

Facing increasingly exorbitant FCC fines, carriers forced users to upgrade to aGPS devices for easier triangulation.

I wanted to keep the phone, but Verizon disconnected it and gave me a Motorola Razr. That was early-2006.

Last edited by dbs600; 02-22-2016 at 01:26 PM..
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      02-22-2016, 01:44 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbs600
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
Difference of opinion is acceptable; personal attacks are another and are of no benefit to the community
Oh please, Mr. "Voice of Reason", no attack meant.

Stating it as it is, as I'd like to get down to the bottom of this; would've thought all would too.

Other marketed and advertised BMW Assist services aside:

Do you not believe the SOS button should be permitted to dial 911 directly?

Our cars are capable, and an interpretation of FCC rules may require same.

How difficult or costly could it be, a quick dealer or over-the-air programming?

And I too had a Motorola V60c, and may have been one of the first and one of the last to have same.

Facing increasingly exorbitant FCC fines, carriers forced users to upgrade to aGPS devices for easier triangulation.

I wanted to keep the phone, but they disconnected it and gave me a Motorola Razr. That was early-2006.
I only repeat things once and make my response clear if there was any misunderstanding the first time. Differences of opinion are inevitable, acceptable, and welcome. That's the foundation on which advancement is built. Personal attacks/insults, even sarcastically, are not going to bring any benefit to this community. Up until my initial reply, there were a grand total of 4 members contributing in this thread and the very first reply went straight to legal action and only one member actually sought out advice on alternatives so they have a safety net to go to. Beyond that, there wasn't any information given beyond the short reference to "telecoms/2G/3G". You ask me to give a "solution", yet seemingly I am blind to any suggestions or helpful contributions on your part. Please reiterate those so I may see the the light. While you're at it, share what your demographic and professional experience is as well.
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      02-22-2016, 02:37 PM   #36
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What is certain, the hardware solution for any car outside of the 4 year warranty will be at the customers expense.
Better not be. They cancelled me, I didn't cancel them... It's not like a map update for the NAV...
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      02-22-2016, 03:00 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
Personal attacks/insults, even sarcastically, are not going to bring any benefit to this community.
Get real; you anointed yourself as the one to bestow reason upon opinion here, as if others are unreasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
Beyond that, there wasn't any information given beyond the short reference to "telecoms/2G/3G".
Didn't you admit that you failed to see the discussion on how sgcrockett1's car is able to dial 911?

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
I am blind to any suggestions or helpful contributions on your part. Please reiterate those so I may see the the light.
I like how you wrote that; G-d.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
While you're at it, share what your demographic and professional experience is as well.
And this matters how? If young and/or wise enough to get myself out of an emergency by way of so-called 'self preservation'?

This questioning frames your evasiveness, when this is about owners of 2014 model year and older vehicles who want BMW Assist, not about any one of us in particular, lol.

So, after all this back and forth, are you opposed to being able to call 911 from the SOS button? If so, it's my opinion that you're of clouded judgment, and biased therefore.

Last edited by dbs600; 02-22-2016 at 10:56 PM..
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      02-22-2016, 03:46 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgcrockett1
Obviously some people use these services more than others. I am what is known as a senior citizen, a retired lawyer, and I still have the need to periodically travel around L A at night. I have relied on Driver Assist on many of these occasions. I do not believe litigation is the answer but if someone is seriously injured I can foresee the likelihood. I have not reviewed the documents to see if binding arbitration is required. There have been many multi-million dollar awards from arbitration. This discussion of litigation or arbitration is not what will solve the problem. BMW should offer a workaround for its customers to assess whether that route should be followed. I went to the Palm Springs BMW dealer and the Sales Manager did not even know about this issue. That was yesterday. BMW is simply not taking this issue seriously.

When I push the SOS button I get a connection to a 911 operator, not a third party that decides whether to connect me to a 911 operator.
A voice of reason.

Do you have a Bluetooth or USB connection to your mobile phone established when you press the button? If the TCU doesn't have a connection to the network itself but an external device is connected and has a signal, the Automatic Crash Notification and SOS button will initiate an emergency call through the device to a PSAP. This is not the same as BMW Assist, and is one interim safety solution some are crying foul over. The car has to have the proper Smartphone integration hardware, so not all vehicles are supported.

I acknowledge and understand that some use the service more than others. Frankly, you're exactly the demographic who's perspective is the most interesting to me. I've seen more money spent on defending frivolous suits in the Automotive industry than the lifetime earnings of every member of this forum combined. There are other service providers for the convenience aspects and I'd be happy to provide some to you. Hearing a legal professional agree litigation isn't a solution is quite nice for a change. Having lived in Rancho Mirage and commuting to Encino 7 days a week, know how desolate it is out there. For your navigation, RTTI comes in through satellite via TCU and/or Satellite Radio.

As to the contractual terms, the most relevant are below. The precedent over this type of situation has long been established. Back in 2002, Volkswagen/Audi partnered with OnStar to provide a telematics and communication service for the 2004 A8 and subsequently other models. This used an internal analog connection box with an optional GM Proprietary Motorola V60 Phone with Verizon Service. Just as the first cars were to arrive, FCC allowed the sun setting of analog networks, VW and GM severed ties, and anyone with the system were stuck, as one couldn't supplement the the internal or separate V60 with their own device. If the situation here was similar, I wouldn't blink at the notion of litigation.

10. Responsibility in Emergency Situations. When our service provider receives an emergency signal from your vehicle, our service provider will attempt to determine if an emergency exists. If so deemed, the service provider will attempt to contact you and the appropriate public safety access point (PSAP) to request assistance and may also attempt to call one of your third party emergency contacts. Neither BMW nor its service provider guarantee that the service provider will actually receive an emergency signal or call from your vehicle or that the service provider will successfully contact the appropriate emergency agency or your third party emergency contacts if it does receive an emergency signal or call, or that emergency personnel will respond to the call or locate your vehicle. Neither BMW, its service provider nor the Underlying Wireless Carrier is responsible for any failure or delay of a PSAP in responding to an emergency or for the quality of service delivered, whether the failure is the fault of BMW, the service provider, the Underlying Wireless Carrier or any other third party service provider. You release BMW, the service provider, the Underlying Wireless Carrier and any other third party service providers from all liabilities and losses (including physical injury or death) that you or others may suffer in an emergency situation.

14. Disclaimer of Warranties. Your vehicle's limited warranty includes the BMW Assist Unit in your vehicle, but does not cover the BMW Assist Services or the wireless service. NEITHER BMW, THE SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER, NOR ANY OTHER

THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY MAKES ANY WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, REGARDING THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES (INCLUDING ANY CONTENT OR OTHER INFORMATION DELIVERED TO YOU AS PART OF THE SERVICES), OR THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER'S WIRELESS SERVICE, INCLUDING ANY WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. ALL WARRANTIES WITH RESPECT TO THE SERVICES AND THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER'S WIRELESS SERVICE ARE EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED.

15. Limitations of Liability.

a. The BMW Assist Services are provided to you merely as a convenience and are not intended as a substitute for insurance. The amount of fees for BMW Assist Services are not related to the value of your vehicle or its contents or to the potential cost of any injury or loss suffered by you or anyone else. You should obtain and maintain adequate insurance covering such injuries and losses. YOU AGREE TO RELEASE BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER AND ALL OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARIES FROM ANY AND ALL CLAIMS, LIABILITIES AND LOSSES IN CONNECTION WITH THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO CLAIMS FOR PERSONAL INJURY OR PROPERTY DAMAGE ARISING FROM THE TOTAL OR PARTIAL FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE OF THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES, EVEN IF CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER, ANY THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY, OR THE MALFUNCTION OF THE BMW ASSIST UNIT. YOU AGREE TO INDEMNIFY BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER, AND ALL OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARIES AGAINST ALL SUCH CLAIMS, LIABILITIES AND LOSSES BROUGHT BY THIRD PARTIES. YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT THIS RELEASE EXTENDS TO ANY PARTY CLAIMING UNDER YOU AND THAT NO INSURANCE COMPANY WILL HAVE ANY RIGHT OF SUBROGATION. b. NEITHER BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER NOR ANY THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY WILL BE LIABLE TO YOU OR ANY OTHER PARTY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES (INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION LOST PROFITS) IN CONNECTION WITH THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES OR THE BMW ASSIST UNIT, EVEN IF BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER OR THE OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY ARE AWARE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. THESE LIMITATIONS APPLY TO ALL CLAIMS, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, CLAIMS IN CONTRACT AND TORT (SUCH AS NEGLIGENCE, PRODUCT LIABILITY AND STRICT LIABILITY). SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THOSE PARTICULAR LIMITATIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. c. IF BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER OR ANY OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY IS FOUND LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY REASON, YOU AGREE THAT THE AGGREGATE LIABILITY OF ALL THESE PARTIES TO YOU FOR ANY CLAIM IS LIMITED TO THE TOTAL AMOUNT PAID BY YOU FOR THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES DURING THE 12 MONTHS PRECEDING THE DATE YOUR CLAIM AROSE. YOU AGREE THAT NEITHER BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER NOR ANY OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY WOULD HAVE AGREED TO PROVIDE THE BMW ASSIST SERVICES TO YOU IF YOU DID NOT AGREE TO THIS LIMITATION. THIS AMOUNT IS THE SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE LIABILITY OF BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER AND ANY OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARIES TO YOU, AND IS PAYABLE AS LIQUIDATED DAMAGES AND NOT AS A PENALTY. IN THE EVENT YOU WISH TO OBTAIN A GREATER AMOUNT ON THIS LIMITATION, YOU HAVE THE OPTION TO PURCHASE SUCH GREATER AMOUNT BY PAYING AN ADDITIONAL MONTHLY AMOUNT AND A RIDER SHALL BE ATTACHED TO THIS AGREEMENT SETTING FORTH THE ADDITIONAL CHARGE AND ADDITIONAL AMOUNT OF THE LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. EXCEPT WHERE PROHIBITED BY LAW, YOU MAY NOT BRING ANY CLAIM AGAINST BMW, ITS SERVICE PROVIDERS, THE UNDERLYING WIRELESS CARRIER OR ANY OTHER THIRD PARTY BENEFICIARY MORE THAN ONE YEAR AFTER THE CLAIM ARISES.

16. Arbitration. IF A CONTROVERSY, DISPUTE, OR CLAIM, WHETHER BASED ON CONTRACT, TORT, STATUTE, OR OTHER LEGAL OR EQUITABLE THEORY (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY CLAIM OF FRAUD, MISREPRESENTATION, OR FRAUDULENT INDUCEMENT) ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO THIS AGREEMENT, TO ANY BREACH HEREOF, OR TO ANY TORTUOUS, CONDUCT OCCURRING, WHETHER BY ACTION OR INACTION, IN THE PERFORMANCE OF OR FAILURE TO PERFORM ANY OBLIGATION HEREUNDER, YOU AGREE THAT THE MATTER SHALL BE SETTLED BY INDEPENDENT ARBITRATION INVOLVING A NEUTRAL ARBITRATOR AND ADMINISTERED BY THE AMERICAN ARBITRATION ASSOCIATION (AAA) IN ACCORDANCE WITH ITS COMMERCIAL ARBITRATION RULES, AS MODIFIED BY THIS AGREEMENT AND JUDGMENT ON THE AWARD RENDERED BY THE ARBITRATOR MAY BE ENTERED IN ANY COURT HAVING JURISDICTION THEREOF. ARBITRATION IS NOT A COURT PROCEEDING. THE RULES OF ARBITRATION DIFFER FROM THE RULES OF COURT. THERE IS NO JUDGE AND JURY IN AN ARBITRATION PROCEEDING. NO ARBITRATOR HAS AUTHORITY TO AWARD RELIEF IN EXCESS OF WHAT THIS AGREEMENT PROVIDES. IN THE EVENT THE FOREGOING ARBITRATION REQUIREMENTS DO NOT APPLY, YOU WAIVE TO THE FULLEST EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW, ANY TRIAL BY JURY AND A JUDGE WILL DECIDE ANY AND ALL DISPUTES. NOTWITHSTANDING THE ABOVE, EITHER PARTY MAY SEEK FROM ANY COURT HAVING JURISDICTION HEREOF, ANY INTERIM, PROVISIONAL OR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF THAT MAY BE NECESSARY TO PROTECT THE RIGHTS OR PROPERTY OF ANY PARTY OR TO MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER THE PENDENCY OF THE ARBITRATION. THE INSTITUTION AND MAINTENANCE OF ANY JUDICIAL ACTION OR PROCEEDING FOR ANY SUCH INTERIM, PROVISIONAL OR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF SHALL NOT CONSTITUTE A WAIVER OF THE RIGHT OR OBLIGATION OF EITHER PARTY TO SUBMIT THE DISPUTE TO ARBITRATION
With all respect, legal blurb is meaningless since I have no idea if that version comports with my version. Also, it's abridged and out of context.

BMW's solution of dumping calls on the already stressed 911 system is absurd.

This is a life safety issue.

This is a classic case where if the bloody manufactures don't take life safety issues seriously then the government will simply step in and set standards and issue regulations. That's a surefire way to stifle technological advancement.

Even if arbitration is required initially, so what? BMW will be bound by it too.

Litigation to compel BMW to do the right thing can hardly be frivolous.

It will never get that far. BMW has a track record of doing the right thing---eventually.
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      02-22-2016, 04:58 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by BMWrules7 View Post
This is a life safety issue.

This is a classic case where if the bloody manufactures don't take life safety issues seriously then the government will simply step in and set standards and issue regulations. That's a surefire way to stifle technological advancement.
Yes, agreed; as complex as this may be, it's as simple as that stated above.

The SIM cards in our cars likely have aGPS capability, so I wonder if a 911 operator would be able to track and locate our whereabouts.

sgcrockett1, can you call 911 again from the SOS button and ask the operator if they can locate you. If concerned over wasted resources, however, no worries. I thank you for your help thus far regardless!

Last edited by dbs600; 02-22-2016 at 10:57 PM..
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      02-22-2016, 06:27 PM   #40
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I will be happy to give it a try and let you know the result.
It is even more confusing. The 911 operator asked if I was in La Quinta (which I am). She then asked the address and I told her the street and number. She then said even though it came back to La Quinta, the information was that I was on a street (Oak Street) which is not in my neighborhood. I have not looked it up, but it is not close. When I explained the issue, neither of us had any possible explanation. Any theories?
Google maps shows Oak-Hills at PGA west which is about 2 miles from here.

Last edited by sgcrockett1; 02-22-2016 at 06:59 PM.. Reason: New information
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      02-22-2016, 06:32 PM   #41
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I will be happy to give it a try and let you know the result.
Great; thanks!
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      02-22-2016, 07:04 PM   #42
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I probably should have made a new post, but I added to my prior post after the experiment. So go back one post to see the results.
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      02-22-2016, 09:10 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgcrockett1 View Post
It is even more confusing. The 911 operator asked if I was in La Quinta (which I am). She then asked the address and I told her the street and number. She then said even though it came back to La Quinta, the information was that I was on a street (Oak Street) which is not in my neighborhood. I have not looked it up, but it is not close. When I explained the issue, neither of us had any possible explanation. Any theories?

Google maps shows Oak-Hills at PGA west which is about 2 miles from here.
Thank you for taking the time to test this.

Strange that the operator had the correct town, the wrong street, and there's no street by that name in the town.

Maybe some type of interference? Was your car in your garage? If so, maybe test again tomorrow during the day on a main road?

What comes to mind is when "Find My iPhone" is sometimes off by a lot - by 10 or more streets - and then it re-triangulates and hones in on the correct area after a minute or two; maybe if you were connected to the call long enough 911 would've received enough info to properly triangulate?

Curious as to how your SOS button defaulted to dialing 911 in light of BMW Assist expiration. Your car is one year newer than mine, but not sure if that makes a difference, as mine was built after 9/2010 (when the revised combox was used).

Maybe 'coders' will discover a way to unlock 911 capability?

Last edited by dbs600; 02-22-2016 at 11:30 PM..
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      02-22-2016, 11:08 PM   #44
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Article from December 2014: http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/04/tech...illing-off-3g/

Two quotes on point:

"Gartner's Ken Dulaney predict[s] that 3G will be gone by 2018."

and

"To speed up the transition, telecommunications industry analysts predict that carriers will offer free 4G phone upgrades to pry the last remaining holdouts away from their aging devices" - which is exactly what Verizon did to get me out of my V60, they gave me a Razr (which I didn't want at first, mind you).

So, why has BMW Assist been terminated in 2016 - when 3G may be supported for another two years - and why no news on a low / no-cost retrofit?

Last edited by dbs600; 02-22-2016 at 11:30 PM..
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