Miscellaneous Tesla/EV debate

[WestRace]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Model X, S and 3 performance models are governor-ed at 155, just like most german cars
Nothing to do with 1 gear

Brakes should have ample power on Performance model for such runs, we shall see

I've read somewhere on the web that the Model S is software limited to 130mph and somebody on the Model 3 able to get 141mph. I also seen video where the Model S was able to beat a few cars in quarter miles but after that, the other cars was overtaking the Model S because with only one speed, the motor starting to slow down. But my point is not fast or slow, it's more if the car is built for demand track use which is claimed by Mr. Musk unless he was only talking about purely 0 - 60. I've read that for example the Camaro ZL1 needs like 11 different coolers at different parts of the car just to be track ready.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by WestRace

I've read somewhere on the web that the Model S is software limited to 130mph and somebody on the Model 3 able to get 141mph. I also seen video where the Model S was able to beat a few cars in quarter miles but after that, the other cars was overtaking the Model S because with only one speed, the motor starting to slow down. But my point is not fast or slow, it's more if the car is built for demand track use which is claimed by Mr. Musk unless he was only talking about purely 0 - 60. I've read that for example the Camaro ZL1 needs like 11 different coolers at different parts of the car just to be track ready.

130 is for non-performance models (due to AS tires), please read carefully what i wrote.
Motor is not slowing down, single gear is optimized for specific task.
Other cars overtaking after what speed?
It traps 1/4 mile at 125, meaning it is still pulling away from last gen M5 after it crosses the mark second earlier.
Again, we can speculate all day long, what Tesla M3 can do or can't. Until we see real life examples, we won't know

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by JibSTir13

As others have said, he panders to non-enthusiasts (which is what most Tesla drivers are).

I hate to break it to you, but most BMW buyers are not car enthusiasts either.
We are fairly small group

However, we shall see sales figures for M3, AMG, RSs and etc some time later this year. I'm really curious to see how TM3 is going to affect that
Regular TM3 is already outselling base 3-er, C-class and A4 in some states
It's just a beginning...

[Tacoma]

I don't know about other parts of NA, but here in Toronto, I'm seeing a lot of Tesla Model S's, more than BMW 5 Series and 7 Series combined. No doubt whatsoever that they are stealing sales away from BMW and also MB E and S classes.

I think it's going to be tougher to beat the 3-Series and C Class (including M's and AMG's) but I don't doubt Musk can make a huge dent. Musk has proven a lot of people wrong up to this point.

[Poiseuille]

Just curious here: in order to achieve that range of 310 miles, how many times can you drive the car at those performance levels? None? When you do need to charge, do you bring something with you by, say, Tolstoy, to read?

[AndreyATC]

Confused with your question...
How many miles M3 can do on the full tank at the track vs. city driving?
Tesla can probably do 400, but on track is still anknown
As for charging, i guess you can have a 40-min lunch while your car gets 80% of charge
In the summer, charging time will be cut down to a half. So you can just have a coffee while charging.
Tolstoy may be a good idea still, but you won't get far with your book

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Confused with your question...
How many miles M3 can do on the full tank at the track vs. city driving?
Tesla can probably do 400, but on track is still anknown
As for charging, i guess you can have a 40-min lunch while your car gets 80% of charge
In the summer, charging time will be cut down to a half. So you can just have a coffee while charging.
Tolstoy may be a good idea still, but you won't get far with your book

Not really apples to apples. Filling up the M takes a few minutes.

Are you aware if there is a good range estimator somewhere that estimates Tesla range based on changes in temperature and driving speed?

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Not really apples to apples. Filling up the M takes a few minutes.

Are you aware if there is a good range estimator somewhere that estimates Tesla range based on changes in temperature and driving speed?

Yes it definitely not apples to apples. I charge home and you go to gas station. I spend zero time and And you probably throw away almost day of your life at the gas station every year

I like this site the best
https://www.evtripplanner.com
However, I don't normally plan my trips. Car does it for me. It tells me where to stop and how long to charge. I'm experienced EV owner as well. Very familiar with the cars behavior

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Yes it definitely not apples to apples. I charge home and you go to gas station. I spend zero time and And you probably throw away almost day of your life at the gas station every year

I like this site the best
https://www.evtripplanner.com
However, I don't normally plan my trips. Car does it for me. It tells me where to stop and how long to charge. I'm experienced EV owner as well. Very familiar with the cars behavior

Well that’s a contradiction. If you charge from home and spend zero time, the car wouldn’t need to tell you where to stop and how long to charge.

I’ve heard the whole Tesla attempt at a value proposition by trying to turn around time spent charging vs. filling up. It’s ridiculous.

[DieGrüneHölle]

The mere fact that there is a website dedicated to EV trip planning, tells you enough...inconvenient.

[Darth One]

Like I said earlier, I'm willing to give EV a chance to catch up to gas cars. Even though I can't imagine many people here - me included - getting with the program, since we spend tens of thousands of dollars making our cars sound louder and angrier...

I'm actually more skeptical of Musk and Tesla being the ones to create the EV to actually beat BMW. I'm more interested in seeing what stuff like the Porsche Mission E brings to the table...you know, cars made by companies who'd had rich Motorsports traditions since before Elon was alive, and know how to make interiors that people actually find aspirational

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Well that’s a contradiction. If you charge from home and spend zero time, the car wouldn’t need to tell you where to stop and how long to charge.

I’ve heard the whole Tesla attempt at a value proposition by trying to turn around time spent charging vs. filling up. It’s ridiculous.

Not really contradiction.
My 99% of driving is commuting and i spent zero time filling up
Those trip calculations the car does for me are for 500mil+
And i'm definitely ok to spend 40min charging while having lunch or dinner with my kids.
The side bonus - it's free
Oh, and guess what, charging time cut in half starting this summer
Now i may have to tell my kids to eat a lot faster so we can get back on the road in 20 min.
Otherwise, god forbid, car will be fully charged waiting for us to finish our food

And please, do a simple math on how much of your life you spend to do gas fillups and oil changes
Been there, done that

For me it was on average, including driving to station:
20min/week*52weeks=17hrs/year
My gas station wasnt perfectly on my way home
Plus, depending on the car and oil you have to do oil changes once or twice a year. That's another few hours i hate to waste

ICE drivers sit 30min to fill up at Costco
Is it that much cheaper?

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

The mere fact that there is a website dedicated to EV trip planning, tells you enough...inconvenient.

Not all EVs are like Teslas that route you through supercharger network the most convenient way
So the site exists to help out other fellow EV drivers.
Plus Tesla network was a lot smaller when ppl used the site and Teslas didnt have the routing feature back then.
I havent used the site in ages. No use for it anymore

The funny thing is, I have ran out of gas a few times with my ICE cars. Call it bad planning or issues with stations not being 24hrs open
I had no issues with running out of juice on Tesla though
It does come handy when you know exactly where you are going to be charging

[pikkagtr]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

The mere fact that there is a website dedicated to EV trip planning, tells you enough...inconvenient.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Not really contradiction.
My 99% of driving is commuting and i spent zero time filling up
Those trip calculations the car does for me are for 500mil+
And i'm definitely ok to spend 40min charging while having lunch or dinner with my kids.
The side bonus - it's free
Oh, and guess what, charging time cut in half starting this summer
Now i may have to tell my kids to eat a lot faster so we can get back on the road in 20 min.
Otherwise, god forbid, car will be fully charged waiting for us to finish our food

And please, do a simple math on how much of your life you spend to do gas fillups and oil changes
Been there, done that

For me it was on average, including driving to station:
20min/week*52weeks=17hrs/year
My gas station wasnt perfectly on my way home
Plus, depending on the car and oil you have to do oil changes once or twice a year. That's another few hours i hate to waste

ICE drivers sit 30min to fill up at Costco
Is it that much cheaper?

Clearly you've been drinking the Kool-Aid...

1. Your statements were absolutely a contradiction. You initially said charging takes you no time because you charge at home but then went on to talk about how the car tells you when it needs to be charged and where to stop. So clearly you don't do all charging from home. Further, since the original question was Tesla's need to recharge on track day vs. an M's use of gas on track day, charging at home is irrelevant.

2. I spend about 5 minutes / week (10 if busy and driving 500+ miles) filling up for daily driving. There are many gas stations on every route I take, I never need to wait in line and I never need to plug my car in or do anything except close the car door and garage door when I get home.

3. Your logic is that if I spend 4-5 hours (or 8 if you prefer) per year filling up, it is a total waste of time, even if I might be doing something else at the same time like checking / responding to work emails, reading news on an app, ordering something from Amazon, getting a bottled water, etc. Meanwhile, a 40-minute charge (not to mention going off route to get to the charger) wastes no time because you can have lunch while the car charges. That is absolutely ridiculous, which has not changed since Tesla first came up with it.

4. In 3 years I have been in for routine maintenance 4 times including once for tires. I have not been at all for non-routine / warranty issues, such as QC problems. I understand EVs don't require oil changes but are you telling me your EVs have never been in for maintenance or repairs? Tesla charges for maintenance so if cars don't require any maintenance other than software updates seems like a pretty hefty charge.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Clearly you've been drinking the Kool-Aid...

1. Your statements were absolutely a contradiction. You initially said charging takes you no time because you charge at home but then went on to talk about how the car tells you when it needs to be charged and where to stop. So clearly you don't do all charging from home. Further, since the original question was Tesla's need to recharge on track day vs. an M's use of gas on track day, charging at home is irrelevant.

2. I spend about 5 minutes / week (10 if busy and driving 500+ miles) filling up for daily driving. There are many gas stations on every route I take, I never need to wait in line and I never need to plug my car in or do anything except close the car door and garage door when I get home.

3. Your logic is that if I spend 4-5 hours (or 8 if you prefer) per year filling up, it is a total waste of time, even if I might be doing something else at the same time like checking / responding to work emails, reading news on an app, ordering something from Amazon, getting a bottled water, etc. Meanwhile, a 40-minute charge (not to mention going off route to get to the charger) wastes no time because you can have lunch while the car charges. That is absolutely ridiculous, which has not changed since Tesla first came up with it.

4. In 3 years I have been in for routine maintenance 4 times including once for tires. I have not been at all for non-routine / warranty issues, such as QC problems. I understand EVs don't require oil changes but are you telling me your EVs have never been in for maintenance or repairs? Tesla charges for maintenance so if cars don't require any maintenance other than software updates seems like a pretty hefty charge.

Kool-aid?
This crowd consumes this stuff in gallons, thinking there is no other brands besides BMW
I spent zero time this year charging.
I will spend zero time charging until the rest of the year, since my planned trips require flying.
And even if i have to charge couple of times (on that once-a-year trip), that's nothing compared to annual fueling
Bottom line is, i will be putting less time into my car than you no matter what.
I only mention routing on the long trips just because Tesla has that ability. Not sure if other EVs have that built in.
No maintenance, sorry.
I just swap summer and winter wheels and check tire pressure at home
NYS annual inspection checks brakes and suspension

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Confused with your question...
How many miles M3 can do on the full tank at the track vs. city driving?
Tesla can probably do 400, but on track is still anknown
As for charging, i guess you can have a 40-min lunch while your car gets 80% of charge
In the summer, charging time will be cut down to a half. So you can just have a coffee while charging.
Tolstoy may be a good idea still, but you won't get far with your book

Track/Daily M3 owner here...

I get approx. 300-320miles per tank (40%city/60%highway)
On track I can get (2) full sessions before fuel starvation, which is approx. 50-65miles.

However, I've also ran through full tanks on track (50+minutes on track) without overheating. (let's see a GM product do that)

I've already been on track with a standard RWD TM3 and it was no chance for the M3. The laptime delta was approx. 15secs at my home track. The PM3 has a ways to go. However, what I think it more important than pure laptimes is the ability to complete lap after lap without getting limp mode or other issues. If the PM3 can go a full session (lets say 25min on track, not 50+) without issue I'll be extremely impressed.

Either way I'm glad we have something to argue about here. I'm a fan of Tesla so keep it coming

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

I don't know about other parts of NA, but here in Toronto, I'm seeing a lot of Tesla Model S's, more than BMW 5 Series and 7 Series combined. No doubt whatsoever that they are stealing sales away from BMW and also MB E and S classes.

It's WAY worse than that - Tesla Model S (TMS) has DESTROYED luxury market segment for the German automakers, and others, since 2013-2014 model years.
Both in the US, and in Europe.

The last easily googlable reports for 2017 show TMS was outselling S-class, 7/6-series, and Porsche Panamera COMBINED:
https://electrek.co/2017/05/26/tesls...uxury-segment/

Originally Posted by Tacoma

I think it's going to be tougher to beat the 3-Series and C Class (including M's and AMG's) but I don't doubt Musk can make a huge dent. Musk has proven a lot of people wrong up to this point.

Turns out the story is repeating itself with Model 3, starting with Cali (where TM3 went on sale first).
TM3 has outsold 3-series and C-class for the 1Q'18 in Cali:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/te...-in-california

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

Either way I'm glad we have something to argue about here. I'm a fan of Tesla so keep it coming

Bingo!


For me - it's one of each: EV for daily + track toy (M3, P-car, etc) for fun!
I see it staying that way or the next few years. But there will probably come a time when the track toy car will be an EV as well... but not just yet.

a

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by afadeev

It's WAY worse than that - Tesla Model S (TMS) has DESTROYED luxury market segment for the German automakers, and others, since 2013-2014 model years.
Both in the US, and in Europe.

The last easily googlable reports for 2017 show TMS was outselling S-class, 7/6-series, and Porsche Panamera COMBINED:
https://electrek.co/2017/05/26/tesls...uxury-segment/

Turns out the story is repeating itself with Model 3, starting with Cali (where TM3 went on sale first).
TM3 has outsold 3-series and C-class for the 1Q'18 in Cali:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/te...-in-california

Bingo!


For me - it's one of each: EV for daily + track toy (M3, P-car, etc) for fun!
I see it staying that way or the next few years. But there will probably come a time when the track toy car will be an EV as well... but not just yet.

Let’s see how those numbers hold up when the big brands fully get into the EV game. Starting with the Porsche Mission E. I fear for Telsa in a few years when the likes of Benz, Porsche, BMW, Audi are pumping out EV model after EV model.

[Takumi587]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Kool-aid?
This crowd consumes this stuff in gallons, thinking there is no other brands besides BMW
I spent zero time this year charging.
I will spend zero time charging until the rest of the year, since my planned trips require flying.
And even if i have to charge couple of times (on that once-a-year trip), that's nothing compared to annual fueling
Bottom line is, i will be putting less time into my car than you no matter what.
I only mention routing on the long trips just because Tesla has that ability. Not sure if other EVs have that built in.
No maintenance, sorry.
I just swap summer and winter wheels and check tire pressure at home
NYS annual inspection checks brakes and suspension

I agree charging a car after getting home from work is so much easier than finding a local gas station with good pricing. I plan on getting a Tesla Model S as a daily driver and for long trips. I drove a Model S with autopilot etc... and was sold.

Tesla vehicles are just so much more convenient to live with than ICE vehicles. No more oil changes, gas stations, etc...

I do not understand all the hate towards Tesla. It is a great company and they have disrupted the car world in a good way IMO. Competition is coming but Tesla is so far ahead in the industry that I see them as the leaders in electric vehicles for a long long time.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by Takumi587

I do not understand all the hate towards Tesla. It is a great company and they have disrupted the car world in a good way IMO. Competition is coming but Tesla is so far ahead in the industry that I see them as the leaders in electric vehicles for a long long time.

Personally think their days are numbered as the top selling EV brand. It won't take long for others to catch and surpass them. Take the upcoming Mission E for example. Telsa won't be able to match it's build quality and fit/finish. The dealer/service network for the big brands is far superior to Telsa. Telsa has a head start with their supercharging network. But the big brands are joining forces to take on Telsa in that arena as well. For example Ford, BMW, Daimler, and Volkswagen(Audi and Porsche) formed a joint venture to build 400 fast charging stations across Europe. A similar joint venture will be planned for the US. Telsa is going to get ganged up on. Telsa niche market is about to be no more.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Personally think their days are numbered as the top selling EV brand. It won't take long for others to catch and surpass them. Take the upcoming Mission E for example. Telsa won't be able to match it's build quality and fit/finish. The dealer/service network for the big brands is far superior to Telsa. Telsa has a head start with their supercharging network. But the big brands are joining forces to take on Telsa in that arena as well. For example Ford, BMW, Daimler, and Volkswagen(Audi and Porsche) formed a joint venture to build 400 fast charging stations across Europe. A similar joint venture will be planned for the US. Telsa is going to get ganged up on. Telsa niche market is about to be no more.

Haha. That pretty naive to think about German manufacturers to take over any time soon, if ever. Tesla built quality is improving by days and quantity along with it. Porsche will barely be a drop in the bucket. I'd be surprised if they able to build more than 20k annually. What makes you think it'll be worry free car? They doing 5th recall on their 918
As for the charging, no competition
Tesla setup is ages ahead. To the point you can do cross country trips with no planning.
A few fast charging stations is not going to cut it my friend