BMW showcases hydrogen fuel cell, eDrive, and water injection development at Miramas

[Efthreeoh]

Here we go again. Many years of hydrogen fuel cell development. Like BMW invented the idea. Shame on NASA for letting that IP out and Honda actually building a fleet of hydrogen fuel cell cars for lease almost 8 years ago now (when BMW was still paying fines to the EPA for having some the worst CAFE fleet averages). LOL

But it's the future because BMW declares it.

[ORIGIN M.]

Hydrogen is not the future, regardless of what BMW or Toyota wants to tell us.

[MikeRR]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Here we go again. Many years of hydrogen fuel cell development. Like BMW invented the idea. Shame on NASA for letting that IP out and Honda actually building a fleet of hydrogen fuel cell cars for lease almost 8 years ago now (when BMW was still paying fines to the EPA for having some the worst CAFE fleet averages). LOL

But it's the future because BMW declares it.

BMW already had the Hydrogen 7 in 2006 - 100 units built.
I quite like that Hydrogen i8 too

I have more faith and hopes for Hydrogen than for full electric as it functions the same way as a gas engine.

[matbl]

38 km electric range in the AT eDrive?
That would have been ok for a PHEV 3-4 years ago. Now it's just ridocoulous...

[Deluxx3]

That hydrogen model should be the next batmobile!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MikeRR

BMW already had the Hydrogen 7 in 2006 - 100 units built.
I quite like that Hydrogen i8 too

I have more faith and hopes for Hydrogen than for full electric as it functions the same way as a gas engine.

The 7 was an ICE run on hydrogen. We're talking hydrogen fuel cells here. Hydrogen fuel cells powering an all-electric drivetrain is far more efficient. The point is BMW almost always steps in 8 to 10 years behind in a technology then claim it as their own idea and the next best thing to sliced bread.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that General Motors had a production water-alcohol injected turbocharged aluminum V-8 in 1962. Google Oldsmobile F-85 JetFire.

[MikeRR]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The point is BMW almost always steps in 8 to 10 years behind in a technology then claim it as their own idea and the next best thing to sliced bread.

That's called marketing - they all do it.

[ShocknAwe]

Hydrogen fuel cells are the only thing I've seen so far that could possibly replace petrol.

Functions in the same manner. Article was a great read, and was nice seeing pictures of the cell breakdown and the cryo container.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Looks like the entire NY Metro area has all but 1 publicly available hydrogen refueling station... And it's in the Bronx. Looks like even BMW doesn't find refueling stations easy to locate and has to travel with their own!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MikeRR

That's called marketing - they all do it.

Well maybe, but for instance with the new Ford GT, I've not seen any hype about Ford inventing the flatplane crank V-8.

[MikeRR]

The new Ford GT got a turbo V6 you mean the Mustang GT350R I presume.
But yeah, I get your point but you can see this behavior in all makes.

[scott@bmwhn]

...anyone else feel like this hydrogen concept car could have been a more suitable/less polarizing 3.0 CSL homage....

-Scott

[RM7]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Elon musk says hydrogen is ridiculous

I tend to agree. Battery density has already gotten to a useful level, and it will only continue to increase. This compared to the fact that compressing and storing hydrogen is extremely energy intensive and you still have to ship it all over the land and water with a huge supply line if you are going to use it as a fuel in your car, boats, tankers, fuel tanks at the gas station, intermediary locations, and then all the energy that is required to make the things that store and transport it.

15 years ago, it was anyone's guess and hydrogen seemed just as good as anything else, if not better. These days even if you had an abundant supply of hydrogen, it would make more sense to burn it at a powerplant and transmit the energy to your garage to charge your car, but that will probably never happen because hydrogen just takes too much energy to make and store.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Jamie Jason

It would be nice to have a 2-series coupe eDrive. Especially if you live in Belgium with the high taxes on consumption..

A 2-liter diesel with an electric motor that can produce 100pk extra and reduce the consumption? That would be good!

100% Electric 2er is what I'd like to see !

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Elon musk says hydrogen is ridiculous

Musk is correct !

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Musk is correct !

But honestly he just says it to affirm his present efforts with tesla. But he has a point about hydrogen leaks being dangerous and difficult to detect.

The thing hydrogen has for it is the potential to be greener than electrics, which will be popular with the greenies

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

But honestly he just says it to affirm his present efforts with tesla. But he has a point about hydrogen leaks being dangerous and difficult to detect.

The thing hydrogen has for it is the potential to be greener than electrics, which will be popular with the greenies

You can't contain it safely within a vehicle. It's not predictable, so why bother.

We are 18 months away from 200 mile battery packs so moreover who cares.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

But honestly he just says it to affirm his present efforts with tesla. But he has a point about hydrogen leaks being dangerous and difficult to detect.

This is true, he's part genius, part crazy, part a$$hole, part retarded. I think he does say some of these things as affirmation, but it doesn't change the fact that Tesla has broken through as a successful and practical electrical car. There have been plenty attempts before, but none were really practical. Tesla hit enough of the marks to produce a car that could be used for 98% of the driving most people do.

The thing hydrogen has for it is the potential to be greener than electrics, which will be popular with the greenies

Don't agree with that. You need a powerplant just to MAKE the hydrogen, which would be better used making electricity and sending it to the end user, not to mention all the energy that will be consumed compressing and storing the hydrogen, then transporting it, and so on. Sure, it takes a bit of work to recycle the batteries and that tech is getting better and better, but in the bigger picture, an electric car makes a lot more sense for just about everything. Plus, not only is hydrogen extremely flammable, but it's stored under extreme crazy-high pressure, the car may have fuel cells, but the hydrogen has to be stored in many intermediary locations just to get there. Hydrogen can't be greener because of the energy it takes to make.

Even if you had a hydrogen car, you'd still want it to be a hybrid, to recapture the energy that is wasted by braking and downshifting, in which case, you'd ask yourself, why not just go full electric and lose the inefficiency of the combustion engine altogether?

Maybe some people just don't want to let go of the combustion engine, because it's been a part of their lives for so long. I'm of the mindset that I'm going to enjoy it for as long as I can, but I'm not going to cry when it's gone either. We still have a ways to go, but I'm sure of the inevitability of electric cars, just like many other areas of technology have transitioned to electric already.

[VTECaddict]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Even if you had a hydrogen car, you'd still want it to be a hybrid, to recapture the energy that is wasted by braking and downshifting, in which case, you'd ask yourself, why not just go full electric and lose the inefficiency of the combustion engine altogether?

Maybe some people just don't want to let go of the combustion engine, because it's been a part of their lives for so long. I'm of the mindset that I'm going to enjoy it for as long as I can, but I'm not going to cry when it's gone either. We still have a ways to go, but I'm sure of the inevitability of electric cars, just like many other areas of technology have transitioned to electric already.

Hydrogen these days are all about the FCEV (fuel cell electric vehicle), not hydrogen powered ICE. The hydrogen is being used as an energy storage mechanism kind of like a battery, and the fuel cell stack converts the hydrogen into electricity. The car itself is purely electric drive just like a BEV (battery electric vehicle).

The argument/benefit for FCEV is convenience and range. Refueling is fast compared to charging a BEV and range is almost as good as ICE (~200 miles). BEVs take hours to fully recharge whereas you can, in theory, refuel FCEVs in 5 minutes like we do now with gas and diesel.

The biggest drawback currently is the lack of hydrogen infrastructure. Hydrogen also takes a lot of energy to produce and because of that is not as efficient as electricity. The majority of hydrogen is currently produced from natural gas, so it's still dependent on fossil fuels.

BEVs make the most sense in terms of efficiency and potential for renewable electricity production. I'm sure the oil companies will make a big push to make hydrogen work, because they would rather the future be powered by hydrogen (produced from fossil fuels), rather than renewable electricity.

[CrimsonXV]

Surely you all who are shocked/confused about BMW injecting water into combustion engines have heard of methanol injection (commonly referred to as "meth" in the tuner world). That's all this new system is. BMW tuners have been doing it with the N54/55 for years, and I'm sure other turboed vehicles as well, injecting a water/methanol mixture.

What I'm curious about is what exactly BMW is injecting. What concentration of methanol, or ethanol, or some other additive? Or if they really are just using pure water, which I've read risks growing algae (therefore the need for something to kill it). Plus the methanol adds ignition properties to the water thus even more power benefit, or so I understand. The issue though is that the methanol is corrosive and its debated if it is harmful to engine components or not. And so that's why I'm curious about what BMW is now using.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MikeRR

The new Ford GT got a turbo V6 you mean the Mustang GT350R I presume.
But yeah, I get your point but you can see this behavior in all makes.

Yeah, I was speaking of the Mustang GT350. But even with the Ford GT (I wish they could call it the GT40 like it should be named...) I've not seen where Ford has claimed invention of new tech 8 years after it was first introduced by another manufacturer.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Bear From Jax

So, serious question.... How much longer until we can just put water (purified or not) into our tanks and the system just does with it as needed? Like the Warthog from Halo (nerdy I know, deal with it). I'll bet a bushel of apples that the gas companies find a way to make THAT illegal.

Never. The problem is that in order to extract hydrogen from water, you need energy. This isn't an engineering problem, it's a physics problem. The bonds in an H2O atom are very strong, and you can't change that through development of technology. If you have the energy required to break the H2O atom, you might as well use that energy to drive the car directly.

Because there is very little free hydrogen available on Earth, you have to think of it like a battery. We have to expend energy to extract hydrogen from other sources. Ironically, it requires less energy to extract hydrogen from sources like natural gas than it does to extract hydrogen from water, so it's still a fossil fuel based commodity in a lot of cases.