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02-23-2012, 06:56 PM | #45 |
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Peak oil and climate change aside...part of BMW's effort to make carbon fibre a mainline material for its mainline cars is to consider the cost of repairs.
Don't you think BMW has considered such an obvious point in their studies of using the material? They are not building cars in a vacuum and consider the marketability of the product as an essential characteristic that would make it a viable material for car construction. With carbon fiber now being used (not without its challenges) on the Boeing 787 and major investment by several automotive companies, it should be obvious that with industrial production levels of carbon fiber will come substantial breakthroughs on cost. While I'm not saying carbon fiber will be as cheap as steel (but, then again, who knows?), BMW obviously feels that by 2015 it can be competitive so that the advantages of the material outweigh the disadvantages. I'm sure they realize these cars will get damage, and few people would buy a 7 series if even a minor dent would cost the thousands of dollars it would cost today to replace a carbon fiber panel. |
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02-23-2012, 07:07 PM | #47 |
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Given the similar size between a mini and the upcoming i3, I would have guessed mini to have the first ones. Guess not...
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02-23-2012, 07:27 PM | #48 |
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Can't believe all the complaining from people regarding expensive repairs. WHO CARES???!!! THAT'S WHAT INSURANCE IS FOR!!!
I think it is fantastic news that BMW is moving heavily into carbon fiber. We need lighter, stronger, nimbler, more efficient cars and BMW is moving the goal posts with the i3 an i8. These are the types of things I want to see from BMW, not artificially created sound played into the cabin of the M5. |
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02-23-2012, 07:32 PM | #49 | ||
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I don't think the i3 will be like those cars you mention in that, my understanding is that the body shell will be virtually all carbon fiber. I could be wrong about that, however that is my recollection from reading the press material and looking at the pictures that BMW release back when it was still called the "Megacity". In any case this won't effect the 7 series since it won't be nearly that carbon intensive - but as things evolve and time goes on it will no doubt gradually move in that direction assuming that the whole CFRP revolution within BMW has legs. I would be interested to see the outcomes of structural carbon fiber repairs in today's cars and also other applications. Can you repair a carbon fiber ski or ski pole, for example? I have to admit I'd be surprised if you could. Well, not that you'd want to anyway, but it was just an off the cuff example to establish a base-line. What about a broken carbon fiber bicycle frame? Or a a brake rotor (I think they make those now, right F-599X)? Are they making carbon fiber suspensions now days? I think maybe in race cars right? Do they repair those? Not that you'd necessarily even want to repair such things if they were made from steel or aluminum either, but you probably could with success if you really needed to. Just some thoughts. |
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02-23-2012, 07:46 PM | #50 | ||
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I think that the move of CFRP into mainstream automobiles is fantastic. But, the drawbacks, whatever those might be, are certainly worthy of discussion. |
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02-23-2012, 08:48 PM | #51 | |
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BMW has been moving this way with things like the plastic front quarter panels on the E92 and plastic trunk lids on the 6 series. (Does the new 6 have this too?) Carbon Fiber roofs in M cars are a natural extension of this..a part of the car where less weight lowers CG and improves driving dynamics, and can't get dinged in the supermarket parking lot! I feel that CFRP is BMW's attempt to leapfrog the competition by skipping further incorporation of aluminum in its cars so it certainly carries the additional risk of pioneering new solutions rather than evolving the tried and tested ways of the past. I guess my point, and my hope, is that with widespread industrial production of CFRP and the economies of scale this entails, we will see a commensurate reduction in price that may make future cars even cheaper and easier to repair. |
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02-23-2012, 08:53 PM | #52 | |
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Sorry but he is right. CO2 is not an pollutant. Now if you are in the US, it is hard to do research and find out that all this "Global Warming caused by CO2" is just political bullshit supported by scientists that are paid by the government. However in Europe there is a lot of debate about that and it's more likely that Carbon Black might have any relevance to the climate. Flowers live on CO2.... |
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02-23-2012, 09:40 PM | #53 |
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Shocked no one has noticed Scott26's comments about the new 7er having advanced tech from the i8- simply incredible....
One would expect the next 7 to move decently upscale for all this tech etc. and I could see the base MSRP for the next 750i (not Li)reaching 100k easy. -BOND |
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02-23-2012, 10:12 PM | #54 | |
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02-23-2012, 11:20 PM | #55 | |
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02-24-2012, 12:09 AM | #56 | |
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02-24-2012, 02:10 AM | #57 | |||
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It is certain fanatical religious beliefs that are allowing someone like Santorum to have a public stage to call for restricting the rights of women and homosexuals. When did the Republican party start tolerating candidates that want to restrict a group of people's rights so much? I feel bad for all the rational Republicans having to be associated with these irrational, fanatical idiots. But I digress... Quote:
The problem is that almost all new power plants built (in the US and Europe) these days are tremendously efficient, and there is almost nothing to be gained for a given fuel source. Why do you think that the energy cost of electricity is so low? It would be a tremendous waste of capital to try to replace a lot of old coal plants with co-gen plants before the end of their life-span. Industries have an absolute financial interest in efficiently using a resource, so most generally are (especially newly built). The CO2 taxes and cap/trade systems also seek to force more change in this regard, which can be thought of as analogous to CAFE requirements for cars. Blame the lobbyists for the relative lack of efficiency regulations on industry. Also, large infrastructure is replaced on the time scale of 30-50 years, whereas cars are typically <10 years, so you have a more immediate effect. Quote:
Black carbon/soot may have a significant effect on climate changes, but is generally believed to be significantly less than CO2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_carbon Either way, it still comes from the combustion of hydrocarbons/biomass, so you either end up with CO2 or black carbon. Black carbon is also short-lived in the atmosphere, so we could theoretically change our habits and have an immediate effect.
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02-24-2012, 05:59 AM | #59 |
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02-24-2012, 07:42 AM | #60 | |
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So when do we start regulating the CO2 output of the world’s largest pollution source - the 6 billion or so humans that live on the planet? Internal combustion engines can run on other fuels as well as gasoline. There are some geologists who believe oil is not finite... Are you going to be the first one to volunteer to stop breathing for the sake of the planet? Last edited by ENINTY; 02-24-2012 at 07:58 AM.. |
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02-24-2012, 07:48 AM | #61 |
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02-24-2012, 08:00 AM | #62 | |
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If there is "almost nothing to be gained from a given fuel source", well then we need to find a new way. Co-gen is one answer, but there are clearly others, and while I am fully aware that all answers come with their share of drawbacks, the same is true for hybrid-electric, full-electric, and fuel cell automobiles. Yet these solutions are nevertheless being pursued. To my eye, there's a very clear imbalance here. You can justify the current state of affairs however you want, but automakers are having the screws put very tightly to their thumbs, while some other industries and organizations - often bigger offenders at that - roam relatively freely. |
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02-24-2012, 08:17 AM | #63 | |
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I guess regulating car emissions via CAFE is the easiest because there is a framework for it already in place. God knows nothing new is getting implemented in Congress these days. I suppose it is also a way to distribute the "pain" over a large group of people, instead of a narrow industry (though industry could just pass the cost on to the consumers). In cars, you could probably make the case that adding a turbo to make a more efficient engine (per power output) works out best for everyone in the end: - the car costs more to build by the company can pass along those costs to consumers (and maybe charge a premium because it is higher-tech) - the consumer has to pay more up front but makes back their investment and more in terms of fuel cost savings over the life of the car - the environment benefits because less fuel is consumed in total - the US benefits because it reduces our dependence on foreign oil I am all for a balanced approach to energy production, CO2 reduction, and environmental controls because there is no conceivable way for one group to carry all the load.
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02-24-2012, 09:24 AM | #65 |
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Man all this talk about that carbon and that dioxide is making me flustered. Why don't we all just agree that a straight six is more fun than a four pot. And back to the CF.
What about the lamborghini Sesto peso(Sesto elemento)? I'm fairly sure they made a few of those. Anyone know how those are doing? Granted the price of that is astronomical in comparison to a BMW but it should be fair to use it as a basis for the success of the use of carbon fibre extensively in a road car. Or I think someone already mentioned it. The MP4-12C? |
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02-24-2012, 11:49 AM | #66 | |
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