Tesla - no thanks!

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Interesting thread for car people:

Are they sourcing from JC whitney for their performance parts now?

That's beyond sad. Is this fake? Hard to comprehend. If true, they deserve whatever bad press they get for such a move. how much $$ does it really save them. and what does it do to their brand when this becomes known?

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Are they sourcing from JC whitney for their performance parts now?

That's beyond sad. Is this fake? Hard to comprehend. If true, they deserve whatever bad press they get for such a move. how much $$ does it really save them. and what does it do to their brand when this becomes known?

Unfortunately, if true, Tesla isn't the only car manufacturer that has done this. My ex-wife's 2013 Acura RDX has the same caliper treatment. Except, the cover Acura used was a cheaper/thinner piece of metal versus what's being shown in that Twitter video. How I know this about the RDX is because I was personally replacing the brake pads and rotors on the car.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

i was reading this thread last night for about an hour, was going to put it down when BGM or whatever ran away...i was so tired...but then chris got involved so I had to stay.


I freaking love of sensitive people get on bimmerpost...moreover people in general.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Unfortunately, if true, Tesla isn't the only car manufacturer that has done this. My ex-wife's 2013 Acura RDX has the same caliper treatment. Except, the cover Acura used was a cheaper/thinner piece of metal versus what's being shown in that Twitter video. How I know this about the RDX is because I was personally replacing the brake pads and rotors on the car.

so many cars now with fake oil cooler vents, massive grilles for cars with small intakes. aerodynamic bits for cars that drive like boats. hell my crv ex has a sport mode on a fucking CVT. WTF does that even mean

fake exhaust tips, caliper colors and sizes....the list goes on




...rice

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

so many cars now with fake oil cooler vents, massive grilles for cars with small intakes. aerodynamic bits for cars that drive like boats. hell my crv ex has a sport mode on a fucking CVT. WTF does that even mean

fake exhaust tips, caliper colors and sizes....the list goes on




...rice

Ha....my C-HR has a "sport" mode. On a car with an anemic 4 banger mated to a CVT. The thing can't get out of its own way. 144HP trying to motivate a car that weighs 3400 lbs through a CVT and you get a 0 to 60 time of 10 seconds. The funny thing are some members of the C-HR forum that swear up and down the sport mode makes this thing go faster. They get all butt hurt when I tell them the car will only win stoplight drag races if you push it off a cliff.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

so many cars now with fake oil cooler vents, massive grilles for cars with small intakes. aerodynamic bits for cars that drive like boats. hell my crv ex has a sport mode on a fucking CVT. WTF does that even mean

fake exhaust tips, caliper colors and sizes....the list goes on




...rice

Yup. That said, I have to turn off sport sound every single fucking time I get in my X5 because BMW really REALLY wants me to listen to fake sound.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Interesting thread for car people:

Not really surprising as late 2021 Tesla started fitting regular springs to the Model 3 performance without telling anyone and buyers finally started realizing that their Model 3 Performance had the same ride height as the Long Range. Tesla finally did quietly remove the "lowered suspension" text from the Model 3 Performance page but when you order a new Tesla you really have no idea what features could be removed from your car compared to older models as year after year they just keep removing features and hardware unannounced to increase profits.

[NickyC]

I kinda wish BMW would stick a nice caliper cover on that horrid rear G8x slider trash they have on there.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by NickyC

I kinda wish BMW would stick a nice caliper cover on that horrid rear G8x slider trash they have on there.

Fake calipers (covers) look worse than real calipers.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by RM7

Fake calipers (covers) look worse than real calipers.

Have you seen the G8x rear calipers?

[chad86tsi]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla...113526491.html

It will be interesting to see what this does to their stock price and overall business health.


Vehicle / Old Purchase Price / New Purchase Price
3 RWD 46,990 43,990
3 Performance 62,990 53,990
Y LR 65,990 52,990
Y Performance 69,990 56,990
S Dual Motor 104,990 94,990
S Plaid 135,990 114,990
X Dual Motor 120,990 109,990
X Plaid 138,990 119,990

Seems like it was a move they needed to make given the inventory pileup and unfavorable (to tesla) tax credit rules, but it also undermines the value of the product. In the tesla forms, there are a lot of owners bemoaning the drop in value of their cars, some members recommending others to buy gap insurance because they just lost a bunch of equity in their cars.

Probably good for Tesla in the long run, but this is going to hurt a lot of feelings and budgets in the shorter term.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla...113526491.html

It will be interesting to see what this does to their stock price and overall business health.


Vehicle / Old Purchase Price / New Purchase Price
3 RWD 46,990 43,990
3 Performance 62,990 53,990
Y LR 65,990 52,990
Y Performance 69,990 56,990
S Dual Motor 104,990 94,990
S Plaid 135,990 114,990
X Dual Motor 120,990 109,990
X Plaid 138,990 119,990

Seems like it was a move they needed to make given the inventory pileup and unfavorable (to tesla) tax credit rules, but it also undermines the value of the product. In the tesla forms, there are a lot of owners bemoaning the drop in value of their cars, some members recommending others to buy gap insurance because they just lost a bunch of equity in their cars.

Probably good for Tesla in the long run, but this is going to hurt a lot of feelings and budgets in the shorter term.

This puts a lot of heat on rivals, so much for market penetration by other brands. Ford or GM couldn't do prices cuts if they wanted to, they are net negative on EV production. GM is net negative for another 2 years minimum according to CFO.

Tesla is about the only EV manufacturer that can do these price cuts to get under tax credit msrp thresholds and still be in the green. In combination with $7500 tax credit, these price cuts are going to move a lot of metal.

Take the Mach E Extended Range for example, it starts at $63,575. Exceeds IRS $55k msrp threshold for new $7500 tax credit.

Telsa just lowered Model Y Long Range below $55k threshold, to $52,990. Subtract the $7500 tax credit. Theoretically the Model Y Long Range is now $18k+ less than Mach E Ext Range. No one is buying the Mach E for $18k more, which is also slower and has less range. Even worse if you compare it to Mach E Ext Range AWD, it is a $20k difference...ooof.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by M3WC

This puts a lot of heat on rivals, so much for market penetration by other brands. Ford or GM couldn't do prices cuts if they wanted to, they are net negative on EV production. GM is net negative for another 2 years minimum according to CFO.

Tesla is about the only EV manufacturer that can do these price cuts to get under tax credit msrp thresholds and still be in the green. In combination with $7500 tax credit, these price cuts are going to move a lot of metal.

Take the Mach E Extended Range for example, it starts at $63,575. Exceeds IRS $55k msrp threshold for new $7500 tax credit.

Telsa just lowered Model Y Long Range below $55k threshold, to $52,990. Subtract the $7500 tax credit. Theoretically the Model Y Long Range is now $18k+ less than Mach E Ext Range. No one is buying the Mach E for $18k more, which is also slower and has less range. Even worse if you compare it to Mach E Ext Range AWD, it is a $20k difference...ooof.

Yep, some of these prices are near the release prices pre-covid, so back to normal'ish. Also an indication of the benefits of being your own dealer : when the market shifts upward, tesla was able to capture that extra profit for themselves, and then also able to pivot to a lower price when the market retracted without going bankrupt.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Yep, some of these prices are near the release prices pre-covid, so back to normal'ish. Also an indication of the benefits of being your own dealer : when the market shifts upward, tesla was able to capture that extra profit for themselves, and then also able to pivot to a lower price when the market retracted without going bankrupt.

Originally Posted by M3WC

This puts a lot of heat on rivals, so much for market penetration by other brands.

All of your points are yet to be seen - maybe! - but there's a good argument they're wrong:

$TSLA's price cuts are big gamble due to what might be "inelastic demand".

That is, customers *used* to place a premium on $TSLA products, thus when prices went up, demand growth remained steady. That's pricing power!

But the downside is, when prices come down, customers no longer place (as much of) a premium on the product so demand remains mostly unchanged, even though prices fell / are falling.

Dominos pizza had this during the lockdown: lots of demand, lots of pricing power! But once lockdown was over, customers realized they're tired of eat-in pizza and since there are other options now, they went back to once a week even though Dominos lowered prices!

It's not that Dominos has a bad product, but consumers realized they had better options.

There's some recent data supporting Tesla's inelastic demand; the latest Morning Consult survey for the US shows the # of consumers planning to purchase a BEV this year fell from 22% in 2022 to 17% this year. When you combine this with Edmunds 2022 trade-in data which shows that 50% of people trading in a Tesla buy an ICE vehicle (incl PHEVs), it doesn't bode well.

On the positive side, the survey data also said that 66% of people not planning on buying a BEV listed the top reason as price - so that could be a good sign.

That said, I've been slinging product for a few decades and Tesla products look to me like once hot products now fading, and price cuts won't do much to help due to inelastic demand.

My hunch is, without new products Tesla sales will get a bump here, but then continue on their same trajectory, which will mean they're stuck in inelastic demand hell.

On the flip side, the legacies are just releasing their products so they could wind up still commanding a premium.
And speaking of that premium, the benefit of a dealer network is a professional sales team to move buyers from ICE to BEV and a service department to back it up.

Back in the 1930s Ford lost its leadership position to GM and never recovered it; the reason was stale product.

(And Ford tried lowering prices, but it didn't work)

[KRS_SN]

It was being argued that tesla make a profit of 9.8k per vehicle hence they'te awesome. Now that they're reduced their price by nearly that much they're awesome as they have capacity to reduce prices. What about profit then. Or is that awesome too.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Awesome post. Not flaming. Rather quite on point. Profit is such an illusionary Accounting concept.

True...Carbon credit discounts incoming to maintain profits

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

All of your points are yet to be seen - maybe! - but there's a good argument they're wrong:

$TSLA's price cuts are big gamble due to what might be "inelastic demand".

That is, customers *used* to place a premium on $TSLA products, thus when prices went up, demand growth remained steady. That's pricing power!

But the downside is, when prices come down, customers no longer place (as much of) a premium on the product so demand remains mostly unchanged, even though prices fell / are falling.

Dominos pizza had this during the lockdown: lots of demand, lots of pricing power! But once lockdown was over, customers realized they're tired of eat-in pizza and since there are other options now, they went back to once a week even though Dominos lowered prices!

It's not that Dominos has a bad product, but consumers realized they had better options.

There's some recent data supporting Tesla's inelastic demand; the latest Morning Consult survey for the US shows the # of consumers planning to purchase a BEV this year fell from 22% in 2022 to 17% this year. When you combine this with Edmunds 2022 trade-in data which shows that 50% of people trading in a Tesla buy an ICE vehicle (incl PHEVs), it doesn't bode well.

On the positive side, the survey data also said that 66% of people not planning on buying a BEV listed the top reason as price - so that could be a good sign.

That said, I've been slinging product for a few decades and Tesla products look to me like once hot products now fading, and price cuts won't do much to help due to inelastic demand.

My hunch is, without new products Tesla sales will get a bump here, but then continue on their same trajectory, which will mean they're stuck in inelastic demand hell.

On the flip side, the legacies are just releasing their products so they could wind up still commanding a premium.
And speaking of that premium, the benefit of a dealer network is a professional sales team to move buyers from ICE to BEV and a service department to back it up.

Back in the 1930s Ford lost its leadership position to GM and never recovered it; the reason was stale product.

(And Ford tried lowering prices, but it didn't work)

A week ago we were discussing one strategy Tesla had to weather this price/demand storm was to move down market with new or decontented product. It was stated by others they wouldn't want to do that due to segment saturation and competition, and because it dilutes the value of the brand, and that brand its were a lot of their demand and profits comes from.

This re-price effectively moves them down market with their upmarket product. It will dilute not just the brand, but their existing/established upmarket product too. I do think it was a smart survival move short term to stay in the black, but I question the long term consequences will be worth this brand erosion. A large part of that has to do with what it has done to existing owners and their equity in the cars they already have. It alienates a lot of them. Many are instantly upside down on their loans, and the mystique and brand snobbery just got shattered.

Other niche upmarket brands have reduced production and tightened their belt when faced with similar demand pressure. They stayed upmarket and waited out the cycle. That's lost short term profit, but those brands are all still in business, and their vehicles still hold value.

Tesla recently hit the highest "luxury vehicle" production numbers. It has been claimed the reason they are a "luxury brand" is their price point", and let's face it, they aren't luxury interiors. When that price point falls, so too does this "luxury" status.

Tesla has choices/options. This is what they chose to do. I hope tesla gets/got this right, but suspect it will cost them more than it saved.

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

It was being argued that tesla make a profit of 9.8k per vehicle hence they'te awesome. Now that they're reduced their price by nearly that much they're awesome as they have capacity to reduce prices. What about profit then. Or is that awesome too.

Doesn't most of their overall profit come from selling carbon credits? As long as they're breaking even on their cars (or maybe a slight loss), they have that income stream that's a money maker for the company.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by StradaRedlands

Doesn't most of their overall profit come from selling carbon credits?

And bitcoin.


Kind of hard to not profit on free money (carbon credits). Carbon credits are about to shrink because other brands no longer need to buy as many, and bitcoin is still down, and now they have had to slash prices on the actual product they do have domain over. Not good...

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Didn't someone... say that he didn't see how Tesla could afford to keep periodically redesigning its products to keep them fresh

Well, if they did, they're demonstrably wrong!

Tesla can easily afford to make new consumer auto products, they've simply chosen NOT to do that, instead dumping tons of capital into:

• Image-only AP/FSD
• AI
• Tesla Semi
• Tequila
• Shorts
• etc

This:

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Tesla has choices/options. This is what they chose to do.

Right now all the Branch Elonian Muskateers be like:
"ZOMG lower prices means YUGE sales!"

The thing is, none of these people have ever slung product (or, apparently, taken an economics class) because there are few truisms here and one is inelastic demand that I already posted about but, more broadly, it's how supply & demand works:

(1.) Usual, expected scenario
Yes, in strict supply/demand, lower prices = movement *on* the demand curve ... BUT

(2.) Unexpected, frightening scenario
Sometimes a fall off in demand is due to movement *of* the demand curve! See Ford in 1931

There are basically 5 reasons this can happen:

a.) More consumer income like, say, due to low interest rates and/or stimulus checks

b.) Fads, like, say, the cronut: big today, eh tomorrow

c.) Scarcity, like, say, due to supply chain shocks

d.) Comprables, like, say, new competitor products just coming to market (see GM in 1931)

e.) # of buyers increases or decreases

Now, I ain't no genius, but I'd say 4 of those 5 are moving against Tesla and this is before the consumer data that's been rolling in:

* BEVs are falling in consumer consideration set
* 50% of Teslas are traded in for not Teslas
* Tesla inventories are increasing
* Used Tesla prices are falling
* Tesla is actively cutting prices
* Tesla brand favorability is falling quite drastically

It's kinda hard to make an argument that Tesla's demand curve *isn't* shifting ... and if we agree it is, then lowering prices probably won't help due to that ole inelastic demand thing.

And, like I said, this same exact thing happened to Ford in the early 30s and it happened FAST! Like within 9 months Ford went from leader to lagger and never recovered to this day.

[overcoil]

Have not been following this thread, But saw Demuro's YouTube video today.

Does tesla not have the best software to battery to electric motor system on the market or do other manufacturers match Tesla's charging rate and and mileage / kilowatt hour ?

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by Caravaggio

Have not been following this thread, But saw Demuro's YouTube video today.

Does tesla not have the best software to battery to electric motor system on the market or do other manufacturers match Tesla's charging rate and and mileage / kilowatt hour ?

There is more than one question above, one subjective, one objective. Objectively, there are others that beat Tesla's charge rate.