The Airplane Thread

[Lady Jane]

The L-19 was the last Army/RCAF aircraft flown by NCOs (Warrant Officers.)

[Llarry]

Since the independence of the U.S. Air Force from the Army, the Air Force has jealously guarded its prerogatives to operate air forces. They have not objected to the Army operating helicopters, small liaison aircraft, the Beechcraft C-12 -- importantly, in SIGINT form as the Guardrail aircraft -- and even a few VIP bizjets.

The Air Force even allowed the Army to operate small twin-engine transports -- De Havilland Canada DHC-4 Caribou STOL transports designated as Army CV-2s. The CV-2s were piston-powered and when the Army tried to buy the turbine-powered DHC-5 Buffalo (as the CV-7A) the Air Force intervened and stopped the procurement. 144 Army CV-2s ended up being transferred to the USAF as well, leaving the Army without small tactical transports.

The next chapter in the Army versus Air Force transport saga was the Alenia C-27J; I've already related how the Air Force got their foot in the door on that program but then took it over and cancelled it.

In the late 1950s and early 1960s, the Air Force preferred large supersonic fighters delivering nuclear weapons. The Army felt that their requirement for close air support was being ignored and decided to organize a competition for an Army jet attack plane in 1961. There were three competitors:
-- Fiat's G-91 fighter
-- Northrop's N-156F, a single seat fighter derivative of the T-38 Talon trainer, which ultimately became the F-5A
-- Douglas' A4D-2N (later A-4C) attack plane in use by the Navy and Marines

The Army desired their attack plane to operate from minimally prepared fields and tests of the three competitors included operations from grass fields. All three competitors made modifications to their entrants to facilitate such operations.

As you might expect, the Air Force mustered support in Congress to cut the Army jet attack program off at the knees. The experiments were short-lived.

During the Vietnam era, some in the Air Force finally saw the light on close air support. As a result, the USAF operated the A-1 Skyraider and ultimately developed the Fairchild A-10 Warthog, which remains in service today. The A-10 force is being reduced, though, and no replacement is on the horizon.

I've already predicted trouble on the next Army aircraft project: A SIGINT reconnaissance aircraft to replace the long-serving Beechcraft RC-12 Guardrail. The Army wants a jet aircraft for the task -- there is even talk of a Boeing 737 for the mission, which the Army calls Project HADES. Other possibilities include the Gulfstream G550. A couple of rough Army bizjet prototypes have already flown in tests and in preliminary missions in Europe and the Pacific. I predict that the Air Force will never, ever countenance a 737. I suppose a G550 or other bizjet might squeak by. HADES has just started, so it's too early to tell. If history is any judge, there is trouble ahead for the Army.

I should add that the Air Force has never been too thrilled with Navy and Marine Corps aviation, either. Since the Navy does a lot of flying from ships, I suppose that's not too objectionable, but Marine aviation -- in the view of the Air Force "America's third air force" -- is ridiculous. The Marines, though, lead a charmed life in Congress and there appears to be no way for the Air Force to touch them. From the Marine standpoint, Marine air directly supports Marine ground forces -- perfect synergy.

[floridaorange]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

I don't want to hijack the LOL thread, so my counterpoint is in the Airplane thread.

Oh come on - 56k posts - I think you’ve earned the occasional HJ.

[Buug959]

Originally Posted by floridaorange

Oh come on - 56k posts - I think you’ve earned the occasional HJ.

I first read that as HandJob.

[vreihen16]

Near Captain Sully's emergency runway in the Hudson River yesterday.....




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[RobotDoctor]

Originally Posted by Llarry

A very long narrowbody airliner: The Douglas DC-8 Series 61. The DC-8-61 was stretched to 187.3 feet in length. The Boeing 707 was the 800-pound gorilla of the four-engine jet airliner market, but Douglas sold some of these, too.

Very few DC-8s are still in service carrying cargo -- none of the long ones like this.

LOVE that old United Airlines livery! I have been flying United Airlines frequently since 1994 with almost 2.3 million BIS (Butt In Seat) miles pretty much all domestic US and over 4,000 flights. Chances are I have been on that DC-8 as I have been on many during my early years of flying UAL.

[Llarry]

The earliest Army helicopters after the Air Force split off were two similar 3-seat models from Bell and Hiller.

The Bell Model 47 first flew in 1945 and was produced for many customers over many years. The Army designated it as the H-13 and used it for observation, utility and medical evacuation. The Air Force, Navy, Marines and Coast Guard also bought this popular helicopter. It played an important role in the Korean war in all the above roles; in particular, the timely use of aeromedical evacuation saved the lives of many who would have died of their wounds in previous wars. The OH-13 Sioux was only replaced by turbine helicopters; in the Navy, the TH-13 helicopter trainers was replaced by the Bell TH-57 gas turbine trainer still used today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_H-13_Sioux

The Hiller entry was very similar to the Bell, although it flew a bit later. It was used in similar missions to its competitor. It was designated the OH-23 Raven or the Navy HTE. Although popular, far fewer were built than the Bell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiller_OH-23_Raven

Both of these helicopters found a large number of customers outside the U.S. as well and are still in use today, although largely replaced by more modern aircraft. A few have had their air-cooled piston engines replaced by gas turbines.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

I did some research and I believe that this airplane is Hawker Hurricane Mk.I P3717 (G-HITT)

https://warbirdaviation.co.uk/Profil...rricane-p3717/

The Bloch MB-151 had a radial engine and I was not able to find any with a rear view mirror. The "French colors" did not denote the Country of origin and also note the yellow outer roundel on the fuselage.

I stand to be corrected.

And the Oscar goes to...

[Llarry]

I don't think I'll go into the whole bunch of Army helicopters that have served over the years (Huey, etc.) but there's one interesting Army helicopter that has proved to have a useful life far after its military service: The Sikorsky S-64 (military CH-54 Tarhe) Sky Crane. The CH-54 first flew in 1962 and was quite valuable in Vietnam recovering downed aircraft and lifting other heavy/bulky loads. The Army bought 105 but retired the CH-54 in the 1970s. It remained in service with the Army National Guard until the 1990s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_CH-54_Tarhe

In 1992 the Erickson Company bought the rights from Sikorsky to the S-64 and became the largest operator of the type. They have built about 30 themselves but have also overhauled and modified ex-Army units. Erickson Air-Crane operates the aircraft in the U.S. and notably fights fires with their S-64s. They also lift heavy/bulky items to great heights, such as the tops of towers, and are used for logging activities, etc. Italy and Korea have bought S-64s for firefighting duties.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Llarry

The CV-2s were piston-powered and when the Army tried to buy the turbine-powered DHC-5 Buffalo (as the CV-7A) the Air Force intervened and stopped the procurement. 144 Army CV-2s ended up being transferred to the USAF as well, leaving the Army without small tactical transports.

My father flew C-7 Caribou's in Viet Nam for the AF-- I'll have to dig out some pictures. They're pretty wild.

You're spot on about the AF not knowing what to do with them after they got them. But they were *great* for flying into fire bases and FOB's-- they could land on a postage stamp and carry a fair bit of ammo and supplies doing it.

R.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

During the Vietnam era, some in the Air Force finally saw the light on close air support. As a result, the USAF operated the A-1 Skyraider and ultimately developed the Fairchild A-10 Warthog, which remains in service today. The A-10 force is being reduced, though, and no replacement is on the horizon.

Speaking of A-10 reductions, the U.S. Air Force has just selected Davis-Monthan AFB in Arizona as the preferred location to host an Air Force Special Operations Command Power Projection Wing. The new 492nd SpecOps Wing will consist of OA-1K armed overwatch aircraft and MC-130J SpecOps transports. The existing operational A-10C squadrons at Davis-Monthan will retire their 84 A-10s. Davis-Monthan is the largest A-10 wing in the Air Force, with three deployable squadrons and two training squadrons. This looks like the beginning of the end for the Warthog. The A-10 was designed as a tank killer for a European land war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact, but also proved useful in Afghanistan, etc. The OA-1K, on the other hand, is a converted agricultural spraying aircraft with sensors and armament. The changes will occur over several years, but I suspect the Army is not too thrilled with this news. The retirement of the D-M A-10s wing will mean the retirement of half the deployable Air Force inventory of A-10s: there are also two squadrons at Moody AFB, Georgia and one squadron at Osan AB, Korea; the force will be reduced from six squadrons to just three. There are also one Air Force Reserve squadron and four Air National Guard squadrons.

[Llarry]

The U.S. administration has recently asked Congress to approve the sale of 38 F-16 fighters and 4 P-3C patrol aircraft to Argentina. The (used) F-16s would come from Denmark and the P-3Cs from Norway.

When the U.S. sells military aircraft to other countries, they normally retain the right to approve any further transfer to a third country.

This potential transaction is likely to make the UK unhappy, as the status of the Falkland (Malvinas) Islands is still in dispute between Argentina and the UK some 40+ years after the Falklands war between the two countries.

Part of the U.S. rationale for the deal is to forestall the purchase of Chinese JF-17 fighters by Argentina; the JF-17 looks a lot like an F-16.

[Llarry]

The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS Enterprise made a visit to Tasmania in 1976 and artfully arranged the air wing on the flight deck. Virtually all these aircraft -- the F-14 Tomcat, the A-5 Vigilante, the A-6 Intruder, the EA-6 Prowler, the A-7 Corsair, the S-3 Viking, the EA-3 Skywarrior and the SH-3 Sea King -- have now been retired; a modern carrier would have several dozen F-18 Super Hornets on deck, along with some EA-18 Growlers and MH-60 Seahawk helicopters. But all the way aft in this shot are two aircraft still seen today -- the Grumman (now Northrop Grumman) E-2 Hawkeye and its transport variant the C-2 Greyhound. The C-2 is on its way out, being replaced by the CMV-22 tilt-rotor and the E-2 of today is far advanced from that of 1976, but it is still in production and likely to serve for many more years.

The Enterprise herself is gone as well, with a new Enterprise under construction.

[Llarry]

Manfred von Richthofen was the leading German fighter pilot of World War I. He was originally a cavalry officer and then became a pilot, flying two seaters. Nothing really clicked until he became a fighter pilot.

The majority of his aerial victories were scored in Albatros fighters of several models -- the D.II, D.III and D.V all looked very similar. His final victories were achieved in the difficult-to-handle but agile Fokker Dr.I. The Albatros fighters featured water-cooled Mercedes engines, while the Fokker had an air-cooled rotary engine. He flew a number of aircraft and in the latter period frequently had his aircraft painted either partially or fully red, which captured attention on both sides.

Richthofen was killed in action on April 21, 1918 at age 25 in a Dr.I and there is some controversy over the events that day. A Canadian RAF pilot, Captain Roy Brown is conventionally credited with the victory but was himself unsure that he had killed Richthofen. As they were at low level, the "Red Baron" may very well have been killed by an Australian machine gunner on the ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_von_Richthofen

[Llarry]

With Dang3r missing in action, it's been a while since we've had our Tomcat fix. Here's an F-14A of VF-2 approaching the airfield in 1987.

Dave "Bio" Baranek is a retired F-14 Radar Intercept Officer who has published several books centered around the F-14.

[Llarry]

Some elaborate nose art on a North American B-25 Mitchell bomber.

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by Llarry

With Dang3r missing in action,

Yes and I am worried. We used to correspond about BMW bikes. My German was better than his English. I just hope he didn't have a serious mishap with Bluebelle.

[Llarry]

In that case, a Tornado photo as well in honor of Dang3r. (Was he not a former Tornado crewman?) Thinking good thoughts.

[Llarry]

I love these historical markings; here's a KC-135R of the 100th Aerial Refueling Wing, based at RAF Mildenhall, UK. Note the unit flash of "D" on the tail.

The 100th maintains the tradition of the tail markings on B-17F Flying Fortresses of the 100th Bomb Group (Heavy) in World War II marked with "D" on the tail. (second photo)

[Llarry]

Here's a situation report on U.S. Navy carrier aviation.

The Navy has 11 nuclear-powered aircraft carriers in commission, but at any given time one is in the shipyard for a lengthy maintenance and modernization process.

An aircraft carrier is nothing without the aircraft and there are presently nine carrier air wings (CVWs) with about 74 squadrons assigned.

Each CVW is assigned four strike fighter squadrons with about 44 aircraft total. These are used for attack operations with a variety of ordnance and can defend the carrier against air attack or conduct air superiority missions at a distance. Typically, one of those squadrons flies a dozen F/A-18F two-seat Super Hornet and three fly the single-seat F/A-18E Super Hornet. The Navy has ordered 698 Super Hornets, which are still being produced but approaching the end of production within a couple of years. The newest F/A-18s are being delivered with F-35-style widescreen instrument panel touch displays and eliminate many of the separate buttons -- only two squadrons have these "Block III" Super Hornets so far, but many more will get them. The newest strike fighter is the F-35C Lightning, which will ultimately be flown by two squadrons per CVW. At present, two Navy strike fighter squadrons fly the F-35C, with a third imminently to receive the Lightning to replace their F/A-18Es. There are also two Marine Corps fighter-attack squadrons that fly the carrier-based F-35C and are integrated into Navy CVWs; the Marines will ultimately have four squadrons. The total of F-35Cs is presently about 90-100 and the production line is hot, with 369 scheduled to be purchased.

Each CVW has a small electronic attack squadron assigned with 5 EA-18G Growlers. The EA-18G is very similar to the F/A-18F. The Navy has 160 Growlers, but not all are assigned to carriers; CVWs have 9 squadrons and several other squadrons are land-based and deploy worldwide -- for instance, the last I heard a squadron was in Poland bolstering NATO capabilities given the hostilities in Ukraine. The EA-18G has radar jamming equipment and can carry AGM-88 HARM radar homing missiles.\ as well as air-to-air missiles for self defense.

Another small, but vital squadron, is the airborne early warning squadron with 5 E-2 Hawkeyes. The E-2 extends the carrier's radar horizon and can control strike operations or air defense in the vicinity of the carrier; it also downlinks radar data to the carrier if nearby. Two of nine squadrons still fly the E-2C, which is being phased out; the other seven squadrons fly the new E-2D Advanced Hawkeye. The Navy plans to buy 125 E-2Ds and production is almost complete.

There are two helicopter squadrons assigned to each wing, although the helicopters are distributed among the carrier and its accompanying ships. One flies the MH-60R Seahawk helicopter primarily in the anti-submarine role. The other flies the MH-60S in a variety of roles but in the CVW focusing on logistic support -- transferring personnel and cargo between ships of the carrier strike group. The two MH-60 types look quite similar; an easy way to distinguish them is that the ASW MH-60R is a "short wheelbase" model with dual tail wheels, while the MH-60S has a single wheel farther to the rear.

The carrier also has a detachment of several transports assigned to provide support over longer distances. The C-2A Greyhound (not pictured) twin-turboprop is being replaced by the CMV-22B Osprey tilt-rotor in that role. These aircraft are loved by the ship crews -- they bring the mail, in addition to spare parts, passengers, etc.

The current issue with the wing is the lack of dedicated aerial refueling support. The F/A-18s can carry a refueling pod so that one Super Hornet can extend the range or endurance of another, but that takes an expensive, high-performance aircraft out of service for strike fighter combat missions. A significant portion of Super Hornet sorties are spent providing tanker services. The Navy is buying the MQ-25A Stinger aerial refueling drone to address this issue but the MQ-25A is still in test and production is about to commence; it will not join the CVW -- in detachments of 5 aircraft -- for several more years.

In sum, the carrier and its aircraft are a formidable and mobile instrument of American power, which can project the power virtually anywhere in the world. There are not quite as many carriers or wings as there were a generation ago, but the package is also very expensive to buy and maintain.

[Llarry]

Here's a one-of-one little-known aircraft: The Boeing XB-38 bomber, which was a B-17 with the Wright R-1820 9-cylinder air-cooled radial engines replaced by Allison V-1710 liquid-cooled V-12 engines in 1943. The XB-38 was a bit faster than its B-17 counterpart, but the ceiling was lower, which I think was a big deal with the bombing campaign against Germany just getting into high gear. High-altitude bombing was the Army Air Force's key tactic.

[vreihen16]

Today is the (CV-11) USS Intrepid's 80th commissioning anniversary.....