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      07-03-2020, 10:11 PM   #23
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Doesn't make one insecure to invest in one's appearance and want to feel good about themselves. It's no different from buying higher end clothes and shoes because you appreciate the more fitted appearance and quality.

Plus minivans are unnecessarily large for most families.
But he is forced into a three row situation anyways, it's not like he has choices. At that point, it's the lesser of evils and at least the minivan is flexible.
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      07-03-2020, 10:13 PM   #24
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      07-03-2020, 10:14 PM   #25
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Of those, Macan for sure. I can attest it basically drives like a car. It'll be spacious enough for kids that age.
On what PLANET will it be spacious enough?

You guys, honestly, never cease to amaze me. He has THREE kids in safety seats. We had an X3, with 2 kids and the seats are not that far off touching each other. A Macan is even smaller. If through some miracle he does get three wide in there, they're gonna kill each other fighting for space.

Then there's the trunk, it's WAY too small for a stroller and say a few groceries.

Bunch of dreamers, not gonna happen!
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      07-03-2020, 10:22 PM   #26
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      07-03-2020, 10:23 PM   #27
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Great feedback and opinions here! I worked at a BMW store and later a VW/Audi dealer in the early 2000's but haven't driven much in the way of new metal in the last 10 or so years.

I agree with folks saying an E61 is likely too long in the tooth at this point (and yes we did get the 530 variant for a year or two, but they're few and far between). The MB R-van is an option I hadn't considered but is of the same vintage as the E61. I had my E36 M3 for 8 years and I'm looking for a family hauler that will be around for just as long. I tend to keep my vehicles for a long time once I'm settled; 150k miles is probably not a good starting point. Build quality and driving enjoyment are at the top of my list after safety for my kids. I can't wrap my head around needing a multi-ton vehicle to hold 100 lbs worth of kids. As long as the kids are in safe and tested car seats that are installed properly, I feel much better off in a vehicle that can handle and brake properly compared to an SUV with drink coasters for brakes.

We've huffed 2 babies and toddlers out of an E91 without issue for a few years now. Before that we had an E92 and E82 when it was just our oldest so I'm not really sold on the *need* to have an SUV or van to haul kids after 5 years with wagons and coupes. Luckily rear leg room on one side is a non-issue since my wife is 5'1".

The automatic E91 seems like it would collect dust if we bought a 3rd vehicle so I want to make sure we get something engaging to drive. Cost/space isn't an issue but given the COVID situation and that I am the only one with a commute, well had a commute... it would make sense to move on from one of the E91s and eventually replace it with something analog that's fun to drive. This last 6 months is the first time we've been down to 2 cars since we met 10 years ago.

Once COVID settles down, I think we'll Turo a few of the options or set up overnight test drives. As long as the E Class wagon doesn't drive like a complete dog, it seems to check the most boxes. A Macan does as well, but we'd have to see how much leg room is in play for the rear driver's side. There's no rush to make a purchase but I usually take a long time to make a car selection. For now we can take both vehicles if we want to go somewhere but given the current situation that won't happen much. Rarity of a vehicle doesn't phase me, it took me well over a year to find my 6MT E91.

Some proof of the 3 wide setups -

Macan:


Mercedes W212 Sedan, not wagon but same seat dimensions


Keep the comments coming and have a great holiday weekend everyone!
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      07-03-2020, 10:27 PM   #28
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You cannot consciously put kids under 3 in those seats. I had the Radian, I use it as a glorified high back booster once my kids turned 5 or so, I thought it was that bad.

Maybe it is just me, i am paranoid about kids and cars. I don't even let mine use a regular booster until age 8, i prefer the 3 point harness high back booster as the kid won't fall out the window in the event of a roll over.

Safety aside, 5 people in a Macan, likely needing a stroiller .... nightmare. Reality is nothing is going to be really engaging to drive, maybe one is better than the other but man, they are all meh at best.
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      07-03-2020, 10:31 PM   #29
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The E-Class wagon is a good option. Is three car seats abreast (in a row) required?

What is your year/mileage requirement? Have a look at an M-B R500 or AMG R63. Both V8 and in their day was the ultimate kidmobile. The AMG R63 is a rocket ship and has a cult following. The R-Class will be 10+ years old and likely over 100k miles, and meets most of your requirements.
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      07-03-2020, 10:36 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E91WAG3N View Post
Great feedback and opinions here! I worked at a BMW store and later a VW/Audi dealer in the early 2000's but haven't driven much in the way of new metal in the last 10 or so years.

I agree with folks saying an E61 is likely too long in the tooth at this point (and yes we did get the 530 variant for a year or two, but they're few and far between). The MB R-van is an option I hadn't considered but is of the same vintage as the E61. I had my E36 M3 for 8 years and I'm looking for a family hauler that will be around for just as long. I tend to keep my vehicles for a long time once I'm settled; 150k miles is probably not a good starting point. Build quality and driving enjoyment are at the top of my list after safety for my kids. I can't wrap my head around needing a multi-ton vehicle to hold 100 lbs worth of kids. As long as the kids are in safe and tested car seats that are installed properly, I feel much better off in a vehicle that can handle and brake properly compared to an SUV with drink coasters for brakes.

We've huffed 2 babies and toddlers out of an E91 without issue for a few years now. Before that we had an E92 and E82 when it was just our oldest so I'm not really sold on the *need* to have an SUV or van to haul kids after 5 years with wagons and coupes. Luckily rear leg room on one side is a non-issue since my wife is 5'1".

The automatic E91 seems like it would collect dust if we bought a 3rd vehicle so I want to make sure we get something engaging to drive. Cost/space isn't an issue but given the COVID situation and that I am the only one with a commute, well had a commute... it would make sense to move on from one of the E91s and eventually replace it with something analog that's fun to drive. This last 6 months is the first time we've been down to 2 cars since we met 10 years ago.

Once COVID settles down, I think we'll Turo a few of the options or set up overnight test drives. As long as the E Class wagon doesn't drive like a complete dog, it seems to check the most boxes. A Macan does as well, but we'd have to see how much leg room is in play for the rear driver's side. There's no rush to make a purchase but I usually take a long time to make a car selection. For now we can take both vehicles if we want to go somewhere but given the current situation that won't happen much. Rarity of a vehicle doesn't phase me, it took me well over a year to find my 6MT E91.

Some proof of the 3 wide setups -

Macan:


Mercedes W212 Sedan, not wagon but same seat dimensions


Keep the comments coming and have a great holiday weekend everyone!
You're gonna get a Macan then, the W/S212 E-Class while it isn't a dog, will not be engaging. The E350's are tried and true Mercedes, meaning comfortable and quiet cruisers, but not engaging or relatively "fun," and coming from an E-chassis BMW won't help your case. While it does benefit from sedan handling and a lower center of gravity than an SUV, Mercedes didn't really design that car to be fun unless you go full on AMG. Macan is like a hot hatch on stilts and feels very much engaging, however I do think you should bring three carseats to the dealer before purchasing and try it out. I still think maybe a CPO Cayenne would be much better in your situation.
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      07-04-2020, 12:10 AM   #31
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On what PLANET will it be spacious enough?

You guys, honestly, never cease to amaze me. He has THREE kids in safety seats. We had an X3, with 2 kids and the seats are not that far off touching each other. A Macan is even smaller. If through some miracle he does get three wide in there, they're gonna kill each other fighting for space.

Then there's the trunk, it's WAY too small for a stroller and say a few groceries.

Bunch of dreamers, not gonna happen!
You made a good point but chill out lol.
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      07-04-2020, 03:02 PM   #32
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I think you’re trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Hate it if you must, but a 3-row SUV is your best option here. Don’t forget your kids are going to grow and you’ll also need room to haul their shit. Not every drive needs to be a revelation in steering feel. Sometimes you just want to take the kids and their bikes to the park or whatever. No shame in that.
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      07-05-2020, 09:16 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
You cannot consciously put kids under 3 in those seats. I had the Radian, I use it as a glorified high back booster once my kids turned 5 or so, I thought it was that bad.

Maybe it is just me, i am paranoid about kids and cars. I don't even let mine use a regular booster until age 8, i prefer the 3 point harness high back booster as the kid won't fall out the window in the event of a roll over.

Safety aside, 5 people in a Macan, likely needing a stroiller .... nightmare. Reality is nothing is going to be really engaging to drive, maybe one is better than the other but man, they are all meh at best.
Gone are the days of the 1966 Ford Country Squire with its flat, steel cargo floor with all seats folded and us kids sliding around as my dad drove over the 3-hump Burdette Road in Bethesda, Maryland.

LOL
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      07-05-2020, 05:11 PM   #34
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Although you can go 3-wide with the narrower seats do you really think the trunk space (and roof box) are enough for a picnic or road trip? I suppose there are ways around that

To those disparaging the lower profile seats, know that they meet safety standards and are often laden with a cost, weight and portability trade-off. Cars are now massive, bottom line is we all lose in a crash situation with an F150. My kiddo is in a modern car seat in either a 3-series wagon or GTI and accident avoidance is always the primary safety precaution.
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      07-05-2020, 05:21 PM   #35
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Can you put one of the kids up for adoption and get a Ferrari FF? It meets none of your criteria but what a cool ride!



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      07-05-2020, 06:59 PM   #36
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I think minivan is likely the best bet.

I’ve got an X5 with 2 seats in the back (middle, passenger side) and it will get tight when we move to two convertible seats. On long hauls, the trunk is stuffed with strollers, bags, etc. The rear seat passenger doesn’t have too much room to move around. Though you can fit 3 seats in a lot of cars, the interior space is very confined. The front passengers likely can’t move their seats very much either.

Been thinking of graduating to an X7 for the extra space, but ultimately a minivan will just be more practical.
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      07-05-2020, 07:13 PM   #37
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Can you put one of the kids up for adoption and get a Ferrari FF? It meets none of your criteria but what a cool ride!
I just bought one, can't wait to get it. Had my eye on them for the last 5 years and they finally have sunk to the low $100's price point. IMO there is no better car for the money if you can handle the maintenance cost and potential repairs cost. Got mine certified from dealer with 2-year unlimited miles warranty. Original MSRP was over $430k. I paid $100k including the warranty. The warranty normally costs ~$6500 per year, but Ferrari currently has a deal where CPO cars get two years for the price of one and this dealer was including that cost in the price. Some dealers advertise CPO but still charge the $6500 on top of that to include the warranty.

Last edited by dgoldenz; 07-05-2020 at 07:37 PM..
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      07-05-2020, 07:30 PM   #38
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Original MSRP was over $430k. I paid $100k including the warranty.
It's expensive, driving a new car off a forecourt...

Enjoy, it looks stunning!
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      07-05-2020, 07:39 PM   #39
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It's expensive, driving a new car off a forecourt...

Enjoy, it looks stunning!
Thanks, it is definitely one of, if not the highest MSRP FF I have seen. Most of them are "only" in the $330-380k range with options. Someone checked every single box on the options list. The triple-layer white paint is a $28k option by itself, insanity.
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      07-05-2020, 07:45 PM   #40
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I just bought one, can't wait to get it. Had my eye on them for the last 5 years and they finally have sunk to the low $100's price point. IMO there is no better car for the money if you can handle the maintenance cost and potential repairs cost. Got mine certified from dealer with 2-year unlimited miles warranty. Original MSRP was over $430k. I paid $100k including the warranty. The warranty normally costs ~$6500 per year, but Ferrari currently has a deal where CPO cars get two years for the price of one and this dealer was including that cost in the price. Some dealers advertise CPO but still charge the $6500 on top of that to include the warranty.
Didn't know they were getting that cheap. Cheapest CPO I can find isn't anywhere close to that price.

What are the typical yearly maintenance costs out of warranty?
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      07-05-2020, 08:38 PM   #41
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Yes, what is the standard retail price of an oil change at a Ferrari dealer?
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      07-05-2020, 08:43 PM   #42
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I just bought one, can't wait to get it. Had my eye on them for the last 5 years and they finally have sunk to the low $100's price point. IMO there is no better car for the money if you can handle the maintenance cost and potential repairs cost. Got mine certified from dealer with 2-year unlimited miles warranty. Original MSRP was over $430k. I paid $100k including the warranty. The warranty normally costs ~$6500 per year, but Ferrari currently has a deal where CPO cars get two years for the price of one and this dealer was including that cost in the price. Some dealers advertise CPO but still charge the $6500 on top of that to include the warranty.
IDK, E63 AMG S Wagon is pretty damn hot.
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      07-05-2020, 09:26 PM   #43
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Didn't know they were getting that cheap. Cheapest CPO I can find isn't anywhere close to that price.

What are the typical yearly maintenance costs out of warranty?
I bought the lowest priced CPO, you can probably still find it on cars.com, was listed for $110k and got them down to $100k. That is effectively ~$93k when factoring the warranty cost, or $87k if you look at it as two years of warranty cost. It has 48k miles on it which is a lot for a Ferrari so they were willing to deal, but as long as it goes through CPO and has warranty I'm ok with the miles. Pretty sure I can drive it for a couple years and get back what I paid or close to it. Car looks to be in amazing condition for the miles. Fortunately they are one of the dealers that includes the 2-year warranty in their listed pricing. The second lowest CPO car is $116k and is on consignment, options list not nearly as extensive but lower mileage. That dealer wants $7k extra for the warranty.

Consignment cars are usually easier to get the price down than a dealer-owned car. I suspect most cars listed can be had for ~10% below asking price but some dealers are pretty firm. I would generally not buy from most third-party dealers. Just getting a full PPI done costs ~$1k including the compression check and is required by Ferrari if you want the privelege of spending $6500/year on the warranty. When you factor in the 2 years for the price of 1 from a dealer plus knowing it passed all the CPO standards, it just makes more sense to buy from a dealer, especially if it's your first Ferrari (which it is for me).

Quote:
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Yes, what is the standard retail price of an oil change at a Ferrari dealer?
Annual service at a dealer is $1-2k, depends what needs to be done. Indy shop should generally be around $1k. Expensive, but you shouldn't be buying a $400k car if you can't afford that because when a big repair comes along you're gonna have a bad time. The Ferrari warranty doesn't cover everything, it is basically a powertrain warranty but at least that covers the big ticket items. On an FF that is generally the PTU and transmission which can be anywhere from $12-40k.

The ceramic brakes are also crazy expensive, like $40k/set from a dealer. The car I bought had the front discs replaced 3k miles ago so that's a major bullet to dodge. Waiting on the report for the rears from the CPO check but they have to pass minimum standards anyway so I can't foresee them needing replacement in the next few years in all likelihood. I usually keep my cars 1-2 years before moving on. If I can drive a $400k V12 Ferrari for less than ~$20-30k overall cost for 2 years, I'd consider that an absolute bargain.

Word of advice for anyone considering an FF - CHECK THE INSURANCE COST. GEICO is insuring this car for $150/month. I couldn't find any other insurance company that would do it for less than $600/month. After checking with USAA, State Farm, and a few specialty companies like Hagerty/Pure/Chubb/Grundy i just gave up and figured $150/month is as cheap as it will get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
IDK, E63 AMG S Wagon is pretty damn hot.
Agreed, love the E63S wagon, definitely a contender. A V12 Ferrari is still a V12 Ferrari though. Figured I had to do it at least once...
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      07-05-2020, 09:30 PM   #44
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my wife and i bought a '17 grand cherokee v8. decent tech, lots of power, about 30k miles on it with no problems so far. seats are just ok. drives nice like a truck. it has an 8 speed transmission so it has power everywhere.
2nd best tow rating for a mid sized suv, the first being the porsche cayenne (didn't want to spend that much).
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