BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   7Post - 7 Series Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-21-2023, 12:23 PM   #23
gblansten
Brigadier General
gblansten's Avatar
2099
Rep
4,287
Posts

Drives: 23 Tesla S Plaid
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Thick ascending limb

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
General rule of thumb for leasing is that if you roll in all taxes and fees and pay $0 up front, your lease payment should not be more than 1% of the MSRP. Anything over that and you're getting hosed. You can buy whatever you want but that doesn't mean it's a good decision when there are better options out there for the money. You do you though, I just can't imagine forking over $60k to drive an X6M or a Lucid for 3 years. I mean you could buy a Ghost/Wraith and drive it every day and lose less than $60k in 3 years lol. I paid less than that for my Panamera Turbo S which was $223k new, downside is maybe $15-20k max over 3 years?
Your rule of thumb isn't accurate.

If you get a $30000 car for $360/month that would be $1500 month for a $125,000 car.

Last edited by gblansten; 11-21-2023 at 12:36 PM..
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 12:34 PM   #24
Alfisti
Brigadier General
6567
Rep
3,042
Posts

Drives: 2008 Saab 9-3 Combi
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

I think we need t be careful not to judge people's wants/desires etc. I mean it makes no objective sense to drive anything but a RAV4, but hot damn 30K for 18 months made me yelp in pain.

1% of MSRP seems very low on a lease. So if a vehicle is $70K you're paying $700? On what planet? That'll be closer to $1200.

Last edited by Alfisti; 11-21-2023 at 01:04 PM..
Appreciate 2
gblansten2098.50
Germanauto9735.50
      11-21-2023, 12:49 PM   #25
King_Leonard
Private First Class
167
Rep
185
Posts

Drives: BMW X2 M35i
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: 3rd World Planet

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I think we need t be careful not to judge people's wants/desires etc. I mean it makes no objective sense to drive anything but a RAV4, but hot damn 30K for 18 months made me yelp in pain.
$55.55 per day. You know how many families in a developing country that would feed?
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 01:01 PM   #26
VR1
Second Lieutenant
United_States
641
Rep
292
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 Comp
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

$30K to drive a car for 18 months sounds insane to me. I'd just drive a 911 or C8 Z06 or something similar for 18 months and lose a lot less
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 01:03 PM   #27
strohw
Captain
445
Rep
617
Posts

Drives: 19 Versys 1000, 20 KTM 690 SMC
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
General rule of thumb for leasing is that if you roll in all taxes and fees and pay $0 up front, your lease payment should not be more than 1% of the MSRP. Anything over that and you're getting hosed. You can buy whatever you want but that doesn't mean it's a good decision when there are better options out there for the money. You do you though, I just can't imagine forking over $60k to drive an X6M or a Lucid for 3 years. I mean you could buy a Ghost/Wraith and drive it every day and lose less than $60k in 3 years lol. I paid less than that for my Panamera Turbo S which was $223k new, downside is maybe $15-20k max over 3 years?
Help me out here because you're numbers don't make any sense. Taxes, fees and money factor all rolled up into a vehicle and you shouldn't pay more than 1% of the MSRP per month?

You're basically saying that a vehicle on a 36 month lease should have a residual value of around 73-75%. That is not a realistic number for a luxury vehicle, or the manufacturer is giving a large discount. And that's assuming interest rates closer to last year numbers. The Ghost/Wraith you mention sit around 25% residual loss after 3 years which means you'll have 90-100k in depreciation. I can tell you by looking up Edmund numbers for various Porsche's, that they aren't giving you anything close to 75% on 3 year leases for nearly any model. Their actual residual may be better but they aren't passing those off to their lease customer.

Last edited by strohw; 11-21-2023 at 01:15 PM..
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 01:26 PM   #28
Sedoy
Captain
683
Rep
998
Posts

Drives: F10
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New England

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
$30K to drive a car for 18 months. Hard pass. Jesus.
Looks like he is trying to get Peter Rawlinson (Lucid Motors CEO) the highest-paid auto industry CEO for the second year in a row despite all the financial problem Lucid is currently facing... if so, make perfect sense.


Lucid’s Peter Rawlinson is highest paid auto CEO in 2022 with $379 million compensation

Lucid 2022 Revenue: $608 million
Lucid 2022 CEO Pay: $379 million

https://www.teslarati.com/lucid-pete...4379%20million.
Appreciate 1
      11-21-2023, 01:28 PM   #29
dgoldenz
Lieutenant Colonel
1903
Rep
1,781
Posts

Drives: Vanquish, FF, 392 Wrangler
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I think we need t be careful not to judge people's wants/desires etc. I mean it makes no objective sense to drive anything but a RAV4, but hot damn 30K for 18 months made me yelp in pain.

1% of MSRP seems very low on a lease. So if a vehicle is $70K you're paying $700? On what planet? That'll be closer to $1200.
www.leasehackr.com has all of the info you need to find good leases, their forums are pretty helpful. Before Covid you could get an M4 CS for $700/month with $0 out of pocket on $110k sticker. Obviously interest rates are higher now, but deals are coming back around especially for EV's because manufacturers can't sell them. Look at the Audi RS e-Tron lol.

I leased a $39k Wrangler for $360/month, paid $0 up front, and then sold it for $8k more than my payoff when the lease ended. Net cost was around $100/month.

In general, leasing is terrible for most cars, especially Porsche as they have some of the worst lease rates of any manufacturer. BMW heavily subsidized their leases for years. I leased a 335d for a payment that was around 0.8% of MSRP with nothing up front, but that was also years ago obviously.
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 01:35 PM   #30
Alfisti
Brigadier General
6567
Rep
3,042
Posts

Drives: 2008 Saab 9-3 Combi
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

It's not just interest rates chief, it's inflation.

We just bought out our STelvio, we were paying $825 a month all in, including taxes etc with no money down. The EXACT same vehicle with less options is now $1,145 a month.
Appreciate 1
gblansten2098.50
      11-21-2023, 01:35 PM   #31
dgoldenz
Lieutenant Colonel
1903
Rep
1,781
Posts

Drives: Vanquish, FF, 392 Wrangler
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
Your rule of thumb isn't accurate.

If you get a $30000 car for $360/month that would be $1500 month for a $125,000 car.
What? The math is simple - $30k car is a good deal at $300/month or less with nothing paid up front. $125k car is a good deal at $1250/month or less. That doesn't mean I'd pay it, but that's a good deal at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by strohw View Post
Help me out here because you're numbers don't make any sense. Taxes, fees and money factor all rolled up into a vehicle and you shouldn't pay more than 1% of the MSRP per month?

You're basically saying that a vehicle on a 36 month lease should have a residual value of around 73-75%. That is not a realistic number for a luxury vehicle, or the manufacturer is giving a large discount. And that's assuming interest rates closer to last year numbers. The Ghost/Wraith you mention sit around 25% residual loss after 3 years which means you'll have 90-100k in depreciation. I can tell you by looking up Edmund numbers for various Porsche's, that they aren't giving you anything close to 75% on 3 year leases for nearly any model. Their actual residual may be better but they aren't passing those off to their lease customer.


Where did I say you should go lease a new Wraith/Ghost? Used cars exist. Would I rather have a used Wraith for 3 years that I might lose $20-30k on or a new X6M that I'm guaranteed to lose $60k on? Easy choice for me. That's just an example, there's plenty of other nicer cars than an X6M that won't lose anywhere near $60k in 3 years.
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 01:39 PM   #32
dgoldenz
Lieutenant Colonel
1903
Rep
1,781
Posts

Drives: Vanquish, FF, 392 Wrangler
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
It's not just interest rates chief, it's inflation.

We just bought out our STelvio, we were paying $825 a month all in, including taxes etc with no money down. The EXACT same vehicle with less options is now $1,145 a month.
So don't lease an Alfa if the lease rates suck? This was literally the first post on the deal sharing page, a Honda Ridgeline with $46k MSRP for $410/month with $1380 due at signing:

https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/signe...380-das/510563

Here's the second link on that page, a Volvo EV with $58k MSRP for $321/month:

https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/signe...-36-10k/510517


Took me 10 seconds to find those.


More:

Q8 E-tron with $81k MSRP for $780/month - https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/signe...00-msds/509975

$1165/month for an $182k e-Tron RS - https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/signe...fective/510145

$120k e-tron GT for $480/month with $5k due at signing - https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/signe...500-msd/507530
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 01:43 PM   #33
gblansten
Brigadier General
gblansten's Avatar
2099
Rep
4,287
Posts

Drives: 23 Tesla S Plaid
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Thick ascending limb

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
What? The math is simple - $30k car is a good deal at $300/month or less with nothing paid up front. $125k car is a good deal at $1250/month or less. That doesn't mean I'd pay it, but that's a good deal at least.





Where did I say you should go lease a new Wraith/Ghost? Used cars exist. Would I rather have a used Wraith for 3 years that I might lose $20-30k on or a new X6M that I'm guaranteed to lose $60k on? Easy choice for me. That's just an example, there's plenty of other nicer cars than an X6M that won't lose anywhere near $60k in 3 years.
$1250/month is completely unrealistic for a $125,000 car without MSDs or a down payment.
Appreciate 1
Germanauto9735.50
      11-21-2023, 01:47 PM   #34
dgoldenz
Lieutenant Colonel
1903
Rep
1,781
Posts

Drives: Vanquish, FF, 392 Wrangler
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
$1250/month is completely unrealistic for a $125,000 car without MSDs or a down payment.
Please see my post directly above this one with a $182k Audi for $1165/month.
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 01:56 PM   #35
G35POPPEDMYCHERRY
Banned
G35POPPEDMYCHERRY's Avatar
No_Country
4999
Rep
4,139
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Philadelphia

iTrader: (1)

YESSSSS another lease vs BUY thread its been soo long


there is no way leasing makes sense overall in long term ownership of a car. Maybe if you get incentives and then buyout.

Now i am sure some people on the fourm have the money to blow. hell I could lease 3 Lucid whatevers this guy has and still not really effect me. but still its kind of bonehead to me and I am a frugal guy. to each their own, if you got the money then fuck it.

Now if you underwater, or in debt(personally)....which most are in leasing as its a means to drive something you can't afford. then I mean whatever as well. AMErrriKAAaaaaaaa

People have this notion that cars needs to be replaced every 3-5 years which is total utter bullshit. again if you have fuck you money do as you please. buy cars can EASILY last 10+ years with minimal maint
Appreciate 1
      11-21-2023, 01:56 PM   #36
gblansten
Brigadier General
gblansten's Avatar
2099
Rep
4,287
Posts

Drives: 23 Tesla S Plaid
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Thick ascending limb

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
Please see my post directly above this one with a $182k Audi for $1165/month.
Please see my comments about DAS and MSDs.
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 02:12 PM   #37
dgoldenz
Lieutenant Colonel
1903
Rep
1,781
Posts

Drives: Vanquish, FF, 392 Wrangler
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
Please see my comments about DAS and MSDs.
$1165/month is the effective rate, which would include everything other than any MSDs. But what does MSD's have to do with anything? You get those back at the end of the lease, so your "cost" on them is the 5% interest you'd lose by not having that cash in your bank.

I literally just posted 5 examples of under 1% leases and those were all within the first few posts on leasehackr. This is not some big secret...
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 02:18 PM   #38
G35POPPEDMYCHERRY
Banned
G35POPPEDMYCHERRY's Avatar
No_Country
4999
Rep
4,139
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Philadelphia

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
$1165/month is the effective rate, which would include everything other than any MSDs. But what does MSD's have to do with anything? You get those back at the end of the lease, so your "cost" on them is the 5% interest you'd lose by not having that cash in your bank.

I literally just posted 5 examples of under 1% leases and those were all within the first few posts on leasehackr. This is not some big secret...
those are smoking deals for sure....but have literally 30+ on incentives so are unicorns. we will have to see a true breakdown from OP....again. leasing to me is lighting money on fire, like renting my apartment right niow
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 02:27 PM   #39
Alfisti
Brigadier General
6567
Rep
3,042
Posts

Drives: 2008 Saab 9-3 Combi
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
Please see my post directly above this one with a $182k Audi for $1165/month.
You're isolating niche cars with a niche market that no one wants. Go find me a Highlander at 1% of MSRP.
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 02:27 PM   #40
strohw
Captain
445
Rep
617
Posts

Drives: 19 Versys 1000, 20 KTM 690 SMC
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
Where did I say you should go lease a new Wraith/Ghost? Used cars exist.
Where are the key word(s) used in your post that I quoted to show us that you're switching between these thoughts. The topic is leasing, you mention what you think is a good lease rate, you mention you couldn't see yourself paying X amount on 2 specific vehicles, you mention buying a Wraith/Ghost while losing less over 3 years and finally say you didn't pay that much on a Porsche.

Wouldn't people who read your paragraph assume you're talking about new vehicles? Am I the one who is confused with what you were saying?


Quote:
Would I rather have a used Wraith for 3 years that I might lose $20-30k on or a new X6M that I'm guaranteed to lose $60k on?
But you won't and that's why I mentioned the depreciation numbers. The Wraith/Ghost lose 25% of their value over 3 years or nearly 100k. The next 3 years it's another 20% or about 60k. On top of that, you have 150k in payments over 3 years before you sell it to get a portion of your money back. I know you were exaggerating with this example and I took it at face value.


Quote:
Easy choice for me. That's just an example, there's plenty of other nicer cars than an X6M that won't lose anywhere near $60k in 3 years.
Like what? List me some high performance SUV besides a Cayenne that have more than a 58-60% lease residual value after 3 years.
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 02:29 PM   #41
Alfisti
Brigadier General
6567
Rep
3,042
Posts

Drives: 2008 Saab 9-3 Combi
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY View Post
leasing to me is lighting money on fire, like renting my apartment right niow
Well perpetually leasing is, leasing to own has some massive upside.
Appreciate 1
      11-21-2023, 02:34 PM   #42
Car-Addicted
Lieutenant Colonel
Car-Addicted's Avatar
United_States
7244
Rep
1,967
Posts

Drives: 2020 BMW M4 CS
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: Central PA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW M4 CS  [9.88]
I agree that leasing is almost never the right call for a private owner but corporate leases are a whole different thing tax wise.
Also if I was going to look at an EV I would absolutely lease as who know what the market will be in three years and I would rather let the lessor take the risk.
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2023, 02:35 PM   #43
strohw
Captain
445
Rep
617
Posts

Drives: 19 Versys 1000, 20 KTM 690 SMC
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Well perpetually leasing is, leasing to own has some massive upside.
I agree with this as manufacturers use both leasing and financing to move certain vehicles and there isn't always a parity on the methods used. Or a great example is the EV cars in this thread that get a $7500 lease credit that isn't give on the fiance side.
Appreciate 1
      11-21-2023, 02:36 PM   #44
dgoldenz
Lieutenant Colonel
1903
Rep
1,781
Posts

Drives: Vanquish, FF, 392 Wrangler
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
You're isolating niche cars with a niche market that no one wants. Go find me a Highlander at 1% of MSRP.
The Ridgeline and Wrangler are niche markets? I didnít say every car is available with an under 1% deal, I said thatís what a good deal is and then posted several examples with minimal effort required to search for them after being told itís not possible. Obviously if the residual value sucks, the money factor is high, and you canít get a good price then the lease is going to suck too.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:30 PM.




7post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST