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      11-21-2023, 03:41 PM   #45
strohw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
The Ridgeline and Wrangler are niche markets? I didnít say every car is available with an under 1% deal, I said thatís what a good deal is and then posted several examples with minimal effort required to search for them after being told itís not possible. Obviously if the residual value sucks, the money factor is high, and you canít get a good price then the lease is going to suck too.
I think it's the way you said it. You literally said if you're not paying 1% or less then you're getting hosed. When realistically for the majority of vehicles that's not the case. EV's aren't selling right now, they have big incentives in general and they have a $7500 lease credit. You can literally pull out EV leases all day from nearly anyone and get super deals. Literally, 10k off 50k EV from multiple manufactures is very very easy right now.

The Wrangler example is no different than something like a Camery or Accord. They lose very little over 3 to 5 years and would probably fit into your window. Now on the flip side, show me more expensive ICE luxury brands that fit within your parameters.
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      11-21-2023, 03:48 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strohw View Post
I think it's the way you said it. You literally said if you're not paying 1% or less then you're getting hosed. When realistically for the majority of vehicles that's not the case. EV's aren't selling right now, they have big incentives in general and they have a $7500 lease credit. You can literally pull out EV leases all day from nearly anyone and get super deals. Literally, 10k off 50k EV from multiple manufactures is very very easy right now.

The Wrangler example is no different than something like a Camery or Accord. They lose very little over 3 to 5 years and would probably fit into your window. Now on the flip side, show me more expensive ICE luxury brands that fit within your parameters.
That's why you don't lease luxury cars that have insane amounts of depreciation and horrible lease rates, you buy them used after someone else already took the bath on it or wait until the manufacturer has to heavily subsidize the lease/buy incentives to get rid of it. Or you can light your money on fire and be happy with that, which some people are fine with.

I don't think my point was difficult to understand - if the lease is over 1%, it's not a "good deal" in a financial sense. It might be a "good deal" relative to other deals on that same car, but that doesn't mean it's a good deal compared to the rest of the market.
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      11-21-2023, 03:48 PM   #47
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LOL. I love how people think unicorn deals posted on a site dedicated to penny-pinching lease nerds are the norm.
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      11-21-2023, 03:52 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
The Ridgeline and Wrangler are niche markets? I didnít say every car is available with an under 1% deal,
They were 4 years ago no?
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      11-21-2023, 03:55 PM   #49
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Lucid won't be around in 1 year. Consider that.
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      11-21-2023, 03:56 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Lucid won't be around in 1 year. Consider that.
To get the thread back on track...agree completely. I don't think their SUV which is pretty cool btw will save them from their "burn rate" of capital.

They do make nice cars. The software in them is somewhat wonky from what I hear.

I think the Saudis will pull continued funding if the overall EV market stays slowed down. And I think it will continue to slow as many of us early to mid adopters saturate out and the bulk of the market is slower to adopt.
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      11-21-2023, 04:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
$1500 a month?

Glad I own all my cars/house. That's just insane.
It's easier to figure out the cost of ownership in a lease. What you pay is what you get.

When you "own" your car as you mention, it's a bit trickier. You need to sell it to realize how much you actually spent on it.

You can buy a new car for $120,000 cash, and laugh at the $1,500 lease payments saying you "own it". But if you sell your car 3 years later for $60,000, you actually "paid" more than the $1,500 a month from the lease and didn't have an easy out (or the possibility of writing the lease payments off if you qualify).

There's no free lunch, and some outliers exist, but in general new car ownership = money.
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      11-21-2023, 04:28 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by M2siast View Post
It's easier to figure out the cost of ownership in a lease. What you pay is what you get.

When you "own" your car as you mention, it's a bit trickier. You need to sell it to realize how much you actually spent on it.

You can buy a new car for $120,000 cash, and laugh at the $1,500 lease payments saying you "own it". But if you sell your car 3 years later for $60,000, you actually "paid" more than the $1,500 a month from the lease and didn't have an easy out (or the possibility of writing the lease payments off if you qualify).

There's no free lunch, and some outliers exist, but in general new car ownership = money.
OK partner, slow down. I used to sell and lease cars, so I know the pro's and con's of each.

I bought my car with 10K on the clock for less than $50K in 2019, and it's damn near worth what I paid for it today. And although I'm not selling, you can bet your sweet ass when I do I'll get it all back.

Go to someone else's playground, this one is taken.
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      11-21-2023, 04:31 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
OK partner, slow down. I used to sell and lease cars, so I know the pro's and con's of each.

I bought my car with 10K on the clock for less than $50K in 2019, and it's damn near worth what I paid for it today. And although I'm not selling, you can bet your sweet ass when I do I'll get it all back.

Go to someone else's playground, this one is taken.
LOL @ emotional response...



You bought your car used and are comparing it to someone making payments on a $120k+ car... It's the same as me saying "you paid $40k for your M2? Jeez, glad I own my $20k Civic paid cash".
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      11-21-2023, 06:02 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
LOL. I love how people think unicorn deals posted on a site dedicated to penny-pinching lease nerds are the norm.
Heaven forbid someone would do a little research before dropping a pile of cash on a massively depreciating asset. Few people said "that can't be done" and then when I posted clear examples that it in fact can be done, the goalposts instantly moved lol.

Who said anything about "the norm"? The norm is getting screwed by paying $1700/month to lease a BMW. I try to not be "the norm" by finding the best deals possible, which usually means buying instead of leasing. Lighting $1700/month on fire to drive a BMW when you can get a nicer car for less seems insane to me but hey to each their own. Nothing particularly wrong with a BMW but $1700/month is exotic car territory.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, you used to be able to get an M4 CS for $700/month on $110k sticker with nothing paid up front. Now THAT is a good deal. Can't do that today, but that's also why I wouldn't lease one for whatever it costs now which is probably double that or more.

Last edited by dgoldenz; 11-21-2023 at 06:11 PM..
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      11-21-2023, 06:09 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strohw View Post
Where are the key word(s) used in your post that I quoted to show us that you're switching between these thoughts. The topic is leasing, you mention what you think is a good lease rate, you mention you couldn't see yourself paying X amount on 2 specific vehicles, you mention buying a Wraith/Ghost while losing less over 3 years and finally say you didn't pay that much on a Porsche.

Wouldn't people who read your paragraph assume you're talking about new vehicles? Am I the one who is confused with what you were saying?

But you won't and that's why I mentioned the depreciation numbers. The Wraith/Ghost lose 25% of their value over 3 years or nearly 100k. The next 3 years it's another 20% or about 60k. On top of that, you have 150k in payments over 3 years before you sell it to get a portion of your money back. I know you were exaggerating with this example and I took it at face value.


Like what? List me some high performance SUV besides a Cayenne that have more than a 58-60% lease residual value after 3 years.
The topic was "what can I do with $60k instead of lighting it on fire with a lease?"

Answers:

1. Find a better lease deal
2. Buy a used car that doesn't depreciate $60k in 3 years

I don't know what is so confusing here, and I wasn't exaggerating at all. A used 2014-2017 Wraith today costs about the same as it did 3-4 years ago, so there has been little to no depreciation after the initial massive hit that some rich bastard took for me (which I greatly appreciate). The Ghost and Wraith have been known to hold their value very well once they level off, and that is just one extreme example of what you can get for less than $20k/year in depreciation. 458, GT3/4, regular 911's, etc all can be driven but way, way less than $20k/year.

Sure, if you HAVE to buy a new car because you just can't stand the thought of having a used car, go nuts and light your money on fire. When I look at how much I'm paying in cash or per month I look at what else I can get for that same money and I think it's absurd that people actually think paying $60k to lease a non-exotic car for 3 years is normal and/or a good deal.
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      11-21-2023, 06:38 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
Heaven forbid someone would do a little research before dropping a pile of cash on a massively depreciating asset. Few people said "that can't be done" and then when I posted clear examples that it in fact can be done, the goalposts instantly moved lol.

Who said anything about "the norm"? The norm is getting screwed by paying $1700/month to lease a BMW. I try to not be "the norm" by finding the best deals possible, which usually means buying instead of leasing. Lighting $1700/month on fire to drive a BMW when you can get a nicer car for less seems insane to me but hey to each their own. Nothing particularly wrong with a BMW but $1700/month is exotic car territory.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, you used to be able to get an M4 CS for $700/month on $110k sticker with nothing paid up front. Now THAT is a good deal. Can't do that today, but that's also why I wouldn't lease one for whatever it costs now which is probably double that or more.
1700 a month for an exotic? Lol. You are putting minimum 75K down and doing 84 months Iím assuming? If you are in the 225,000 range/ You will still be over 2K a month my man. Are we talking something from 2010-2012 ? Then you will be in your range. 2015 458/lambos are in the 230ís and up
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      11-21-2023, 11:26 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by M2siast View Post
LOL @ emotional response...



You bought your car used and are comparing it to someone making payments on a $120k+ car... It's the same as me saying "you paid $40k for your M2? Jeez, glad I own my $20k Civic paid cash".

Those who trade every 3 years are just losing money, regardless of the purchase price. The only time you get ahead is to use the vehicle without it costing you money, and that takes time.

Keep your $120K electric trash, I'm good with my 2 toys that I own, and when I do finally sell them, we'll see who comes out ahead.
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      11-22-2023, 07:37 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
Those who trade every 3 years are just losing money, regardless of the purchase price. The only time you get ahead is to use the vehicle without it costing you money, and that takes time.

Keep your $120K electric trash, I'm good with my 2 toys that I own, and when I do finally sell them, we'll see who comes out ahead.
It is possible to spend more than another person on cars including trash cars and be very happy. It is possible to spend much more than another person on vacations and be extremely happy with those experiences. It is possible to spend more than another person on housing and be very happy.

It is an artificial construct to make winning all about money spent. That is just one value. There are many others. People are different. I enjoyed the hell out of my preceding four M cars and have zero regrets. They were so much fun.
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      11-22-2023, 07:46 AM   #59
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It is possible to spend more than another person on cars including trash cars and be very happy. It is possible to spend much more than another person on vacations and be extremely happy with those experiences. It is possible to spend more than another person on housing and be very happy.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
It is an artificial construct to make winning all about money spent. That is just one value. There are many others. People are different. I enjoyed the hell out of my preceding four M cars and have zero regrets. They were so much fun.
Agreed. But I was born a hustler, so I, apart from enjoying my cars, enjoy getting the best possible deal.

When I finally sell my M2 and my Lotus I will have loved and used them for many years, and yet they will have both made me money in the end. In the case of the Lotus I'll end up getting every dollar spent, including insurance, gas, etc. Truly, an investment, not an expense of any sort.

I suppose this comes from being born lower middle class instead of having a silver spoon up my arse. Who knows? Doesn't matter.
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      11-22-2023, 07:55 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
Agreed. But I was born a hustler, so I, apart from enjoying my cars, enjoy getting the best possible deal.

When I finally sell my M2 and my Lotus I will have loved and used them for many years, and yet they will have both made me money in the end. In the case of the Lotus I'll end up getting every dollar spent, including insurance, gas, etc. Truly, an investment, not an expense of any sort.

I suppose this comes from being born lower middle class instead of having a silver spoon up my arse. Who knows? Doesn't matter.
Fair enough.
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      11-22-2023, 08:03 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Lucid won't be around in 1 year. Consider that.
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Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
To get the thread back on track...agree completely. I don't think their SUV which is pretty cool btw will save them from their "burn rate" of capital.

They do make nice cars. The software in them is somewhat wonky from what I hear.

I think the Saudis will pull continued funding if the overall EV market stays slowed down. And I think it will continue to slow as many of us early to mid adopters saturate out and the bulk of the market is slower to adopt.
I don't know if it's the norm for Lucid to have flashy showrooms in very high rent areas, but the one they have in Tysons Corner, VA is just insane. They took a huge chunk of real estate at the Tysons II mall for their showroom. To me, it's no wonder they're losing all that money per car added to how much they are paying their C suite executives.
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      11-22-2023, 08:46 AM   #62
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Looks like he is trying to get Peter Rawlinson (Lucid Motors CEO) the highest-paid auto industry CEO for the second year in a row despite all the financial problem Lucid is currently facing... if so, make perfect sense.
It much worse that that:
Lucid Motors’ CEO compensation survey conducted by Automotive News and Equilar revealed that Rawlinson’s package included a $575,000 base salary, $5.5 million in stock options, and a staggering $373 million in stock awards. However, contrary to Musk’s criticism, Rawlinson’s enormous payout was based on achieving market-cap targets set by the company. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) filings confirm that Lucid’s market-cap targets were met early last year.
In 2022, Rawlinson’s total pay was a staggering 11 times greater than the $34 million earned by the second-highest-paid automotive CEO, General Motors’ Mary Barra, and 21 times greater than Ford CEO Jim Farley’s $18.3 million earnings.

Interestingly, CEOs at rival EV startups do not come close to matching Rawlinson’s compensation either. Despite the fact that Rivian Automotive, a Lucid competitor, is valued at over $22 billion compared to Lucid Motors’ roughly $14 billion, its CEO Robert Scaringe earned just around $1 million in 2022.
https://www.eecology.com/elon-musk-c...rformance.html

You may call it reasonable compensation but I call it GREEN GRIFT.

To bad I'm too late to short the stock on this turkey.
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      11-22-2023, 08:53 AM   #63
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If there's one reason I'd move away from BMW, it's the direction the styling is going in... Lucid has impressive cars but I'd be wary of jumping on such a new bandwagon, at least as your only vehicle. Although I'm assuming everyone with a Lucid has at least one other vehicle or the money to get one if, say, your Lucid needs service or gets wrecked and the service situation is a shitshow like Tesla's is. Not to mention the questionable financials.

On the topic of leases, well under 1% of MSRP/month on certain makes and models, particularly former loaner/demo/fleet cars was common pre-Covid. You weren't getting those deals at full price, after tax. The math just doesn't work out. Those deals were possible with 10-20% off MSRP, plus thousands in incentives, plus MSDs, ideally, which are possible with BMW. Every model has different residuals. MSRP and your ability to ink a good deal are not the only factors.

All-in, I paid under $400/month on a $49k sticker 330i for a 36/10k term during peak Covid. And that's before I got $5k in positive equity when I had a dealer buy out the lease early (didn't put many miles on it). Prices are higher now, although I'm sure you can still get under 1% of MSRP/month deals, depending on the car. For example, brokers on Leasehackr were advertising sub-$400/month 330ix deals in mid-2020. Those deals are around $500/month now, for [essentially] the same car, in the same regions, from the same brokers.
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      11-22-2023, 08:36 PM   #64
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To bad I'm too late to short the stock on this turkey.
That's the mood


Last edited by PhaceN52; 11-22-2023 at 08:51 PM..
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      11-22-2023, 08:42 PM   #65
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      11-22-2023, 09:38 PM   #66
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Horrible idea and use of money.
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