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      12-03-2023, 08:46 AM   #23
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Several of the later model manuals I owned were NA Honda’s, and they needed RPM to get into a good part of the power band and feel like they could accelerate. Keeping them up at 4-5k rpm or more was common for spirited driving. Similar cars with an automatic felt slow because they didn’t have paddle shifters or any other means to keep the engine in the power band.

Modern BMWs with turbos and a fast 8 speed automatic use the turbo to keep the torque curve nearly flat, and to develop max torque at a very low rpm. The ECM then shifts the automatic quickly and at the right time to keep the engine always in a strong part of the torque curve. The result is an automatic transmission car that provides very smooth power delivery with minimal turbo lag.
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      12-03-2023, 08:48 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
I agree with everything in the first paragraph, but disagree with everything in the second paragraph.
Why?
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      12-03-2023, 09:00 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by baege View Post
totally, I have had a couple recent turbo cars, an m240i and a M2C, and after a while you get used to it and don't notice the lag and disconnect as much

but as soon as you drive a powerful NA car again, you are like man I need that back in my life!
My F90 M5 is so responsive and quick shifting that I have never noticed lag. My turbo E36 M3, if I am in the wrong gear, I notice lag sometimes. My E90 M3, if I was in the wrong gear it was a lot like lag ó wait until the engine gets to 5000 and starts pulling hard to 8500. An E39 M5 would feel more torquey down low though the E90 M3 3.85:1 diff multiplies the smaller displacement S65ís torque more to try to compensate.

The best argument in support of manuals is that they give you more to do. I can put my F90 M5 in manual mode and play with the paddle shifters but that does not take as much effort or involve my left leg. But I just donít feel the need. I drove mostly manuals for 40 years and still have a manual turbo E36 M3 and am restoring a manual 75 2002, but for performance or daily driving or even fuel economy, Iíll choose an auto.
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      12-03-2023, 09:03 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Bc2005 View Post
Several of the later model manuals I owned were NA Honda’s, and they needed RPM to get into a good part of the power band and feel like they could accelerate. Keeping them up at 4-5k rpm or more was common for spirited driving. Similar cars with an automatic felt slow because they didn’t have paddle shifters or any other means to keep the engine in the power band.

Modern BMWs with turbos and a fast 8 speed automatic use the turbo to keep the torque curve nearly flat, and to develop max torque at a very low rpm. The ECM then shifts the automatic quickly and at the right time to keep the engine always in a strong part of the torque curve. The result is an automatic transmission car that provides very smooth power delivery with minimal turbo lag.
100% agree. Turbo engines are much better matched with automatic transmissions.

Since I brought up my turbo manual Bronco, I test drove the 2.3L EcoBoost with Ford's 10-speed automatic (which is considered by the industry to be a very good automatic), but it still sucked in my personal evaluation because it was tuned to shift for EPA compliance to fuel consumption and emissions regs. The 10-speed has a "sport" mode, which is a +/- thumb-button on the side of the shift lever, but it is designed to hold gear in off road driving, not performance shifting on the street. Every non-performance street car with an auto is tuned for adherence to government environmental regulations rather than the driving situation the driver is in. That's why I prefer manual transmissions. For the Bronco, the manual lets me use the gears as I want to both on the street and off road, the 10-speed auto in manual mode sucks. Maybe if it had paddle shifters it'd be better, but it's not offered in that configuration for the Bronco. In the case of the Bronco, the manual broadens the drivability of the vehicle because of the way the automatic is tuned and interfaced with the driver. Had the Bronco not been offered with a manual, I'd would not have bought one. I basically ordered my Bronco sight unseen (a first for me) with the hopes the 2.3L EcoBoost/manual was going to be good setup. I test drove the automatic when the Bronco dealer mannequins came available for test drives to customers who had pre-ordered their Broncos (about 1-year before my Bronco was delivered), I almost cancelled my order after the test drive.
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      12-03-2023, 09:24 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
My F90 M5 is so responsive and quick shifting that I have never noticed lag. My turbo E36 M3, if I am in the wrong gear, I notice lag sometimes. My E90 M3, if I was in the wrong gear it was a lot like lag ó wait until the engine gets to 5000 and starts pulling hard to 8500. An E39 M5 would feel more torquey down low though the E90 M3 3.85:1 diff multiplies the smaller displacement S65ís torque more to try to compensate.

The best argument in support of manuals is that they give you more to do. I can put my F90 M5 in manual mode and play with the paddle shifters but that does not take as much effort or involve my left leg. But I just donít feel the need. I drove mostly manuals for 40 years and still have a manual turbo E36 M3 and am restoring a manual 75 2002, but for performance or daily driving or even fuel economy, Iíll choose an auto.
Come on man, modern autos don't deliver THAT much better fuel economy, maybe 1 to 2 MPG better, maybe. And that's in the EPA test regimen; real world street driving it's probably even. If modern autos delivered 5 to 10 MPG better economy you'd have a case, but in reality, modern autos are on par with their manual transmission counterparts at best. Here are the EPA numbers for two of my cars currently in the fleet that were available with both an auto or manual transmission behind the same engine.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 12-03-2023 at 05:42 PM..
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      12-03-2023, 11:21 AM   #28
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I also think the manual brings out the worst in turbo engines. I don't know if it's the programming on the automatic or what but they can mask a lot of the lag.

Before I got the miata I test drove some 718 boxsters and the first was an automatic since that's all they had. I remember thinking this really doesn't have much lag at all and feels pretty good. Then I got to test drive a manual and it was a totally different experience. I could totally feel the lag. Now maybe given more time with the car I would learn how to shift it as to avoid the lag, but I'd rather just have a NA engine.
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      12-03-2023, 11:32 AM   #29
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Seems to me like those folks just prefer old school and maybe don't like tech.

Today, there is no way I could see myself in an NA car unless it was a burly V8, or a screaming V10 / V12... Almost no cars like that in existence anymore. No NA6 nor NA4 could satisfy my performance needs outside of a gt3... which is $200k. So in the 99% of remaining situations... i'll take turbo all day as it provides more torque, fuel efficiency, power etc.

For manual cars... there is no modern car I could see myself in a stick shift with... Gt3 comes with an amazing DCT... and what cars come with a manual tranny that the above engine parameters apply to? For older cars where Automatic trannys were shit... i.e. Evo, S2000, Miata, older corvettes... i'll take manual all day but that's just longing for yesterday more than anything. I think the days of manual are gone... and honestly there is good reason behind it. You'd need lighter weight cars with less torque making a comeback... not gonna happen. Manuals were fine when we had lower power NA cars.
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      12-03-2023, 04:23 PM   #30
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      12-03-2023, 04:51 PM   #31
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I switch from manual cars to my current DCT when the DCT was faster and got better mileage. It is also much nicer to drive in stop and go traffic.
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      12-03-2023, 06:00 PM   #32
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For me, it depends on the car. I could have bought a M6 Challenger Hellcat, but I liked driving the Charger a lot more &, when I bought it, it was to be my DD so the auto was a positive for me.

On the other hand, I am on Miata #6 and all have been manual. I would not consider a Miata with an auto trans unless I could not drive manual due to medical reasons etc.

2 of my 3 Vettes were manual. Had lots of other manuals. Just depends on the car & it's use for me.

I taught myself to drive manual back in the day on a Z24 Cavalier vert. Bought it as a daily to move my Z28 to weekend duty at the time. Taught myself to drive manual driving myself to work everyday.
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      12-03-2023, 08:52 PM   #33
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I'm clearly a bit of an oddball here as I DESPISE all the modern tech (my cars are MY2008 and MY2009) but I am fine with an auto that allows me to select gears.

Someone above mentioned something like "all you're not doing is using your left leg" and TBh that's how i have always felt. My primary concern is, can I select what gear i want, whenever i want? And the answer is yes. I still feel in control of the car, I just don't need to use my left leg. I guess the only thing missing is that perfect rev-match and simultaneous perfect throw into the next gear down, but I don't miss it that much.
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      12-03-2023, 11:13 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I'm clearly a bit of an oddball here as I DESPISE all the modern tech (my cars are MY2008 and MY2009) but I am fine with an auto that allows me to select gears.

Someone above mentioned something like "all you're not doing is using your left leg" and TBh that's how i have always felt. My primary concern is, can I select what gear i want, whenever i want? And the answer is yes. I still feel in control of the car, I just don't need to use my left leg. I guess the only thing missing is that perfect rev-match and simultaneous perfect throw into the next gear down, but I don't miss it that much.
Pushing a button (whether it's a paddle or a knob) is nowhere near the same feeling as downshifting on a manual. That's like trying to convince me condom sex is better or equal to no condom.

Now traffic sure, fine, if it was my daily driver and I spent all day in traffic I would have an automatic. If I just drag race from light to light and every second matters, fine get an automatic. Maybe at the track where you are already driving at your limit... fine. However there is no scenario I can imagine where going out for a drive for the pure pleasure of driving is better in an automatic.
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      12-03-2023, 11:22 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I'm clearly a bit of an oddball here as I DESPISE all the modern tech (my cars are MY2008 and MY2009) but I am fine with an auto that allows me to select gears.

Someone above mentioned something like "all you're not doing is using your left leg" and TBh that's how i have always felt. My primary concern is, can I select what gear i want, whenever i want? And the answer is yes. I still feel in control of the car, I just don't need to use my left leg. I guess the only thing missing is that perfect rev-match and simultaneous perfect throw into the next gear down, but I don't miss it that much.
Can you instantly find neutral?
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      12-03-2023, 11:54 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Apparently for you, the words "manual" and "automatic" mean different things than where most people read definitions. If you are telling the car to shift gears via a button push you are manually shifting the gears using an automated actuation mechanism. An automatic transmission shifts the gears automatically without thought or input from the driver.
Virtually every modern automatic, regardless of DCT or TC or even CVT, has paddle shifters or some other ability to "manually" shift gears, but the default (as far as I have seen) is ALWAYS full automatic. Even in the most recent DCT car I drove (friend's CLA45 AMG) I had to put it in manual mode every single time I turned the car on.
In most new cars, without knowing the specs of a specific car beforehand, it has become very difficult to determine what specific type of transmission it is from the driver's seat because they all have two pedals and paddle shifters. But by and large all DCTs function like traditional automatics. I mean, a number of new Hyundai and Kia SUVs come with dual clutch transmissions but I doubt any of those ever stray out of full automatic function.

Quote:
Most of the reason modern automatics get as good gas mileage as manual transmissions is modern automatics simply have more gears to keep the engine in its most efficient RPM range.

I've driven several different insances of ZF 8-speed automatic in BMWs and which was also used in the Cadillac ATS. In automatic mode it can still be in the wrong gear for the traffic situation or driving intent I want the car to be in. The transmission can't see the road or understand my intent for what I want the car to do.

Your argument is automatic transmissions are better than manuals because autos can shift faster than a human can push a clutch and move a lever. Okay, depending on the automatic's design, no argument there. Shift speed of a manual transmission is also a function of mechanical design, meaning the clutch system design gearset design and shift lever linkage design. But when one is using his BMW to drive to the grocery store or to pick up the kids from soccer practice, who really gives a shit how fast the ZF automatic can shift? It's unimportant. What is important to the manual enthusiast in that same scenario is he gets to choose when to shift.

If you find it too much effort to use your left leg and right arm to manually shift the car's gears (vs. pushing a button) then that's a function of you, not the transmission. If your ZF automatic can shift flawlessly and a bit faster to eek out a few tenths of a second faster in trap speeds, who cares. A manual enthusiast doesn't care because he likes to decide when to shift and appreciates the act of driving more.
I have only owned manual cars so I get it those new 8+ speed autos are all the rage but the handful I have driven (both torque converter and dual clutch) sucked. There's just too many gears which makes the car feel lethargic. Although, I will say I'm starting to miss the boost from my old GTI, my sportbike's acceleration has spoiled me and without an outrageous amount of naturally-aspirated horsepower in a car, everything feels slow.
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      12-04-2023, 10:08 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by nicholasn View Post
I have only owned manual cars so I get it those new 8+ speed autos are all the rage but the handful I have driven (both torque converter and dual clutch) sucked. There's just too many gears which makes the car feel lethargic. Although, I will say I'm starting to miss the boost from my old GTI, my sportbike's acceleration has spoiled me and without an outrageous amount of naturally-aspirated horsepower in a car, everything feels slow.
Then you have driven the wrong cars or it's you. The 8 speed in the Hellcats is widely known for being great for many reasons. Lethargic? lol
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      12-04-2023, 11:22 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Why?
A modern auto will beat you in a straight line, around a track and get better MPG. You can use manual mode to keep it in gear if you want. You can paddle shift if you want. I totally understand you prefer manuals. That is great. Go for it. I have manual cars and auto cars and the only benefit to a manual that I see is you have more to do while driving if doing more while driving is important to you.
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      12-04-2023, 01:42 PM   #39
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Then you have driven the wrong cars or it's you. The 8 speed in the Hellcats is widely known for being great for many reasons. Lethargic? lol
Once you reach a certain level of power it's kind of irrelevant. I would hope that a car with more than 700 horsepower wouldn't feel lethargic. But my personal experiences (in sub 400 horsepower cars) with 8 speed autos has been very disappointing to this point.
And even if the automatic in the Hellcat is "great" I would still want a manual.
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      12-04-2023, 02:29 PM   #40
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      12-04-2023, 06:54 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
You seem upset. Upset that I don't think automatics with a manual mode is a replacement for a 3-pedal transmission. I'm not upset that you like automatics.

Any speed advantage of a modern automatic over a manual is marginal at best. If I cared about getting beat around a track then I'd drive on a track, but there is no track between my home and office, so. . But the roads I daily are pretty effing awesome regardless.

I posted two instances where auto vs. manual show zero difference in MPG rating.

Yes, I do like to continually practice to make perfect shifts every time.
No, I am not upset. I donít have to drive your cars, you donít have to drive mine, and no one wins arguments on the internet about what the other person likes more.
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      12-05-2023, 08:01 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
No, I am not upset. I donít have to drive your cars, you donít have to drive mine, and no one wins arguments on the internet about what the other person likes more.
But I wasn't arguing.
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      12-05-2023, 02:12 PM   #43
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But I wasn't arguing.
That is an opinion.
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      12-05-2023, 04:55 PM   #44
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So I'll be honest and admit I stopped reading after someone tried to say an automated dual clutch transmission is a manual. So I apologize if I'm restating thoughts others have already shared. For the record, my definition of a manual requires three pedals on the floor and a stick that rows between shift gates.

I absolutely love driving a 3 pedal manual as a daily driver, in stop and go traffic, in the snow, even in a right hand drive Hyundai Tiburon we rented in Ireland. I'm lucky to live in an area with great 2 lane driving roads and the manual greatly adds to the pleasure of spirited drives to nowhere.

Along with a manual I prefer an engine with lots of low end torque vs one that you need to rev high to get life out of. I've come to prefer the 3l turbo engines in my 1er, 911 and even the b58 in the x5 over the n52s in my x3 and 328it.

Just to put the cherry on top, I also vastly prefer folding top down cars to hard top coupes. I live a convertible. And for the record, just like a dct isn't the same as a manual, a big sunroof or targa top are not the same as a folding top convertible. I'll live with the noise, the leaks, the lack of insulation for the pure bliss of wind in your face and unhindered smells and sounds of the back roads while carving them up
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