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      01-04-2015, 02:56 AM   #353
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This my point Scott

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Ok I will bite.



The 3er is the benchmark for the segment everyone looks to the 3er .
Its the benchmark because it is proficient in everything expected of this car , and the customer loves it. And they will continue to love it when the LCi appears next summer as it address its minor issues but also extends its greatness with BMWs new superb range of engines . Although engines is not a problem for the 3er as the standard engines are still the benchmark even so that the minuses of the new C-Klasse seem to be its engines. As the main highlight.

Of course sales are down in Europe as a matter of fact for all manufacturers its also approaching mid-life and was not uncommon for the E90 either when approaching LCi as the new A4 and C-Klasse had just launched.
The UK market is not as full strength as it was before the economic crisis , therefore incentives are a given they also are advertising incentives and discounts for the new C-Klasse as well having just done some quick research.

The Gran Coupe as is the Gran Turismo full profit cars because they share the same modular matrix so we make money as well as a regular 3er as well.
These introductions have increased the profit margin for the whole 3er portfolio which with all variants tops out as 10 models * an increase of 3 models to make the 3er the most profitable car in its segment.

* BMW 3er /BMW 3er Li /BMW 3er Touring/BMW 3er Gran Turismo/BMW M3
BMW 4er Coupe /BMW 4er Cabrio/BMW 4er Gran Coupe/BMW M4 Coupe/BMW M4 Cabrio.
The minor but very crucial changes made to the LCI 3' and 1' are the very mistakes I am urging BMW not to make. Dynamically the cars are leaders and benchmarks but in terms design they are either bland in the case of the 3' or odd in the case of the 1'.

If both were better conceived, they would surely enjoyed much more success.
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      01-04-2015, 03:31 AM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Ok I will bite.



The 3er is the benchmark for the segment everyone looks to the 3er .
Its the benchmark because it is proficient in everything expected of this car...
... with BMWs new superb range of engines . Although engines is not a problem for the 3er as the standard engines are still the benchmark even so that the minuses of the new C-Klasse seem to be its engines.

Of course sales are down in Europe as a matter of fact for all manufacturers its also approaching mid-life and was not uncommon for the E90 either when approaching LCi as the new A4 and C-Klasse had just launched.

The Gran Coupe as is the Gran Turismo full profit cars because they share the same modular matrix so we make money as well as a regular 3er as well.
These introductions have increased the profit margin for the whole 3er portfolio which with all variants tops out as 10 models...
There is no need to bite anything, since I'm not here to tease, bait or drag anyone into an endless discussion.

______________
I agree fully that the 3er is a technical benchmark at the moment; best engines, best suspension, refined automatic transmission, best "road-grip". Mercedes C-class has an ancient clumsy automatic, old unrefined engines and the ride (suspension system) is neither top comfortable neither responsive.
What we are talking here are purely technical comparisons, that matter little in every day life and belong to customer-enthusiast discussions by a pint of beer in the evening.
When I, and 99% of customers express a desire for a certain car, we look at the whole package. So, the car must appeal to me as a whole.
Visually, how I sit, the feeling in the cabin, image, design; the product must be right; I'm not buying some technical chart telling me about marginal differences that I certainly will not experience in my real life driving scenario (except the terrible Mercedes automatic).

So, to put the above discussion together; for this kind of money I'm getting something I can desire, as a whole product.
This is where BMW has lost me and many other customers on this new 7er (we are seeing here). The actual lease on the 7er company car is going to be terminated after seeing these pictures.
This is where BMW has lost me on a 3er for my personal use.
______________

BMW 3er lost more than 20% sales in 2014; for a car that is going to be replaced in 2018 this is a horrible result; apparently it was selling only when a total novelty and this only when Mercedes and Audi were being replaced. So a double catastrophe.
Mercedes C is the 3rd most sold car in Germany at the moment; plus it is an absolute leader in sales to private customers (BMW is holding numbers only with fleet and lease sales).
_________
third thing, you're mixing actual offer and BMW's upcoming new engines. Mercedes is also about to release a new generation of modular engines and a newly developed 9 speed automatic. Audi postponed for 1,5 years the new A4 to refine it.
Mercedes is going to release the C-class Coupe in 8 months; with the new automatic, more refined suspension system, more luxurious interiors. More derivatives are following, with the new engines. GLC and GLC Coupe are also ready to start; much improved over the actual C-Klasse.
_____________

To return to the matter at hand; I buy a car I want, not a technical discussion.
The point is, there are cars with much better overall package than BMWs; from Mercedes to new Jaguars and even the upcoming 4-wheel drive Audis.
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      01-04-2015, 11:07 AM   #355
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      01-04-2015, 12:35 PM   #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post

What is astounding to my colleagues not only @ BMW but in this and other forums in the US and Europe. Is the over-reaction to a few grainy pictures that show something but at the same time relatively nothing.

.

Well if it is an "over reaction" then why come LCI time the very things we forum users point out in these "grainy" pics - they look pretty good to me - get changed by bmw? I can make a list but you would know what I am talking about no? E60 5 ser, F25 X3 dam in the F25 X3 bmw even started updating the poor interior before the LCi, actually 1 m after I got the car bmw introduced cup holders with chrome inserts - latter added a lid to the cup holders as I pointed out on the 1st official pics - and also changed the poor poor plastic on the central airvents for new piano black plastic. 6 months after the car was introduced bmw were allready doing a slight makeover to the interior because of poor customer reception (I know I was one of the fools to buy that car imo one of the worst bmw I have ever driven - in all aspects.
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      01-04-2015, 02:02 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post

The "7" seems slightly larger than the other characters.




Is BMW evolving its graphic identity, where every variant was traditionally being labeled with a 3 equally sized digits designation, for the sake of a better legibility and model individualization? So that people would be less tempted to say "three hundred and twenty" or "five hundred fifty" and more tempted to say "THREE-twenty or SEVEN-fourty", thus stressing the series number as being the main part of the model's name and not being left clueless by some obscure designation.

It seems obvious to us car enthusiasts who are in the know, but it's not that obvious for the average Joe that a 330d is a "3 Series" to begin with. Merc and especially Audi have an easier job at labelling their models and making them instantly recognizable for what they are, while BMW is traditionnally merging the series number of a given model with the engine number, resulting into multiple designations within the same model range (316, 318, 320, 325, 328, 330, 335...) and thus creating potential confusion as to what the model's actual name is (e.g. 3 Series and not three-hundred-and-twenty-dee...).
Scott, can you confirm this new graphic trend?
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      01-04-2015, 04:52 PM   #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antares View Post
BMW 3er lost more than 20% sales in 2014;
Got any numbers to back that up?

November Group report:
"The BMW 3 Series has increased sales by 2.8% in the year-to-date (432,064 / prev. yr. 420,401)"

Not forgetting that the 3-er coupe is now the 4-er

"The BMW 4 Series models have achieved sales totalling 104,910 so far this year "

Doesn't seem like a 20% drop to me.
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      01-04-2015, 06:35 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
Got any numbers to back that up?

November Group report:
"The BMW 3 Series has increased sales by 2.8% in the year-to-date (432,064 / prev. yr. 420,401)"

Not forgetting that the 3-er coupe is now the 4-er

"The BMW 4 Series models have achieved sales totalling 104,910 so far this year "

Doesn't seem like a 20% drop to me.
That DAWGY is a troll
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      01-04-2015, 10:23 PM   #360
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      01-05-2015, 01:48 AM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
Got any numbers to back that up?
November Group report:
"The BMW 3 Series has increased sales by 2.8% in the year-to-date (432,064 / prev. yr. 420,401)"
Not forgetting that the 3-er coupe is now the 4-er
"The BMW 4 Series models have achieved sales totalling 104,910 so far this year "
Doesn't seem like a 20% drop to me.
here, the link to the statistic release of the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt:
http://www.kba.de/DE/Presse/Pressepo...cationFile&v=2

Quote:
Originally Posted by BossBeamer View Post
That DAWGY is a troll
(before your snout begins to slurp, these are the official data of the Federal Republic of Germany; for the final proof call your Embassy, or better go there personally (you can never know if your call is not being re-directed))
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Antares; 01-05-2015 at 04:57 AM.. Reason: a member got blasted because of another trolling
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      01-05-2015, 04:24 AM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antares View Post
here, the link to the statistic release of the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt:
(before the snout(s) of you two/one begin(s) to slurp, these are the official data of the Federal Republic of Germany; for the final proof call your Embassy, or better go there personally (you can never know if your call is not being re-directed))
http://www.kba.de/DE/Presse/Pressepo...cationFile&v=2
Sorry, I missed the bit in your original post where you specified that it was only in the German domestic market Given that 2014 would be the first full year without 3-er coupe figures, I don't see it as that surprising. The amount of 4-er sold (according to your source) is far great then the 20% drop in 3-er sales.

The figures I was using were from the Global BMW Group monthly reports, just to be clear.
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      01-05-2015, 05:19 AM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
Sorry, I missed the bit in your original post where you specified that it was only in the German domestic market Given that 2014 would be the first full year without 3-er coupe figures, I don't see it as that surprising. The amount of 4-er sold (according to your source) is far great then the 20% drop in 3-er sales.

The figures I was using were from the Global BMW Group monthly reports, just to be clear.
I corrected my reply; the BossBeamer's post directly under yours got me annoyed.
_____
The discussion I started was about the home market since the carmakers are at their strongest there and the trends are also the first to be be visible on a market which is the first to get the new models, facelifts, tech/engine upgrades, new styling directions for the brand,...

The trend seen here was also reported in the autumn of 2014 in the British media; namely, BMW was giving huge discounts for a 3er, while you had to wait for 3-4 months for a 4er Gran Coupe with no discount; the journalist was asking what is the point in overpaying for a correction of a flawed design (in getting the 4GC instead of the 3er).
___________

Mercedes is still rolling out the new C-Klasse; and that on its own home German market.
The estate (station wagon) form is the most important in Europe; in Germany it can reach up to 90% in sales volume compared to the sedan/limousine.
Mercedes T (station wagon) was introduced on the German market only in September 2014.
This shows how badly BMW 3er is doing; especially if you compare it to the Audi A4 that is going to be replaced this year in autumn (while the 3er is new, gets replaced only in 2019).
___________
mentioning the sales of the 4er Coupe and other derivatives is out of context here, since Mercedes has yet to introduce the 4er equivalents:
-Coupe in autumn of 2015
-Cabrio
-4er GT/GC competitor

Speaking about the global market is too complicated; first you have to rely on the carmakers numbers (that include cars shipped but not sold to the final customer-in UK you have huge areas filled with tens of thousands of unsold cars); global market is also about the brand's presence; so if a carmaker is weak in China it can loose 50% in volume sales compared to another brand.

Last edited by Antares; 01-05-2015 at 05:25 AM..
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      01-05-2015, 08:00 AM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antares View Post
I corrected my reply; the BossBeamer's post directly under yours got me annoyed.
_____
The discussion I started was about the home market since the carmakers are at their strongest there and the trends are also the first to be be visible on a market which is the first to get the new models, facelifts, tech/engine upgrades, new styling directions for the brand,...

The trend seen here was also reported in the autumn of 2014 in the British media; namely, BMW was giving huge discounts for a 3er, while you had to wait for 3-4 months for a 4er Gran Coupe with no discount; the journalist was asking what is the point in overpaying for a correction of a flawed design (in getting the 4GC instead of the 3er).
___________

Mercedes is still rolling out the new C-Klasse; and that on its own home German market.
The estate (station wagon) form is the most important in Europe; in Germany it can reach up to 90% in sales volume compared to the sedan/limousine.
Mercedes T (station wagon) was introduced on the German market only in September 2014.
This shows how badly BMW 3er is doing; especially if you compare it to the Audi A4 that is going to be replaced this year in autumn (while the 3er is new, gets replaced only in 2019).
___________
mentioning the sales of the 4er Coupe and other derivatives is out of context here, since Mercedes has yet to introduce the 4er equivalents:
-Coupe in autumn of 2015
-Cabrio
-4er GT/GC competitor

Speaking about the global market is too complicated; first you have to rely on the carmakers numbers (that include cars shipped but not sold to the final customer-in UK you have huge areas filled with tens of thousands of unsold cars); global market is also about the brand's presence; so if a carmaker is weak in China it can loose 50% in volume sales compared to another brand.
I think you're getting yourself confused, you pointed to the 3-er being down 20% as the result of people not having an up to date choice from Audi or Mercedes, and considered it an absolute catastrophe. I was pointing out, that in the snapshot of this one market the 3-er number will be down because there are only 3 3-er models on sale now (in Germany at least), prior to this, there would have been 5. If the 4-er was still a 3-er the numbers would have been UP. BMW still shifted more cars in the segment than they did before, the fact it was split across a new badge is irrelevant to your original point.

I'm not arguing this because I care whether BMW are leading the sales race or not, because I don't. I just saw it as you misrepresenting the situation for the purposes of your argument. I don't really care what Audi or Mercedes sell in comparison - that's why I've not mentioned them at all.

As for the UK market, I think that journo was overlooking the fact that 5 door fastbacks are pretty popular over here, if he refers to the 3-er as a "flawed design" then it sounds like he is trying to find support for his personal tastes on design. As for incentives, I don't know about that to be honest, company pays my bills! but, since the 3-er has much lower base options than the 4GC, it doesn't surprise me if there is more discounting going on. I would be more surprised if equivalent 35d xDrive models (for example) where being incentivised significantly differently, but like I say, I really don't pay any attention to that sort of stuff.
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      01-05-2015, 08:26 AM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N & M View Post
It is in the way it alters the perception of customers. In a strong 7'dominated market, our customers perceive it as jump in quality, exterior and interior design.

Before talking dynamics and driver or passenger appeal, the senses cannot but help to feel impressed. This is something I am sad to say that is lacking in what we see in the images for the 7'.

As insider myself, and after raising the bar with the i8 , I really expected more.

You can argue to your heart's content, but you cannot escape the fact that overwhelmingly the opinions of even your most ardent supporters have shown concern and distress.

As said before, it is not too late to make some changes rather than ignore the obvious and wait for the LCI.

We eat with our eyes before our mouths and this dish does not look as appetizing as its ingredients promise.
What do you mean "as an inside myself?"
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      01-05-2015, 09:56 AM   #366
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Ugh - that looks terrible. I was hoping BMW was on the right track. The current 7 was a massive improvement over the butchered previous (Bangle) version... and now it looks like it's heading back down hill again. Thankfully I love my 550xi - and if it turns out to be an ugly remodel, too, I'll be jumping ship to Audi - the S8 is a beautiful car.
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      01-05-2015, 12:53 PM   #367
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Now tell me Scott when are we going to see another Pullman competitor from Bmw?
With the new 9er perhaps?

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      01-06-2015, 02:22 AM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladberca View Post
Are you sure? Have you seen the entire face of the new 7? I don't see the point of these stupid comments!
This comment is tend to became a reality

I love cuurent 7, but this one is disapointing and a step back to the bangle's ugliness. I wait for a final pics, but honestly i beleive they will be just variations of this.
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      01-06-2015, 05:14 AM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
I think you're getting yourself confused,...
I don't really care what Audi or Mercedes sell in comparison - that's why I've not mentioned them at all.
BMW (BMWG.DE) will pay 5.1 billion yuan ($820 million) to auto dealers in China to share the cost of BMW-forced overstocked showrooms.
BMW has been hit by the competition on the highly competitive Chinese market, leaving its product range increasingly exposed.

BMW started subsidizing its dealers in 2012, the payout in 2013 reaching around 3 billion yuan.
BMW shares closed down 3.3 percent at 85.08 euros.
For BMW, China is the key for retaining its crown of largest luxury auto maker by sales.
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      01-06-2015, 09:09 AM   #370
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I think we need to keep some things in mind here:

1) Perspective makes a huge difference in pictures. These photos were clearly taken by a guy in a hurry with a cellphone with a wider angle lens than was proper, on a car that was jacked up on shipping blocks. Lets take a look at some examples:

Look at the difference between the M5 front based on a too-close wide angle corner shot, and a straight on front shot:





And from the rear:



You coan see how the first images of each make the car look distorted/headlights too big, back windshield too small, etc. Now take into account a car being three inches too high because it's been jacked up with suspension blocks. Kind of getting my drift?

Then, look at some of the interesting things coming with it:

http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/01/06/ne...e-recognition/" rel="ugc" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.bmwblog.c...cognition/</a>


Personally I'm excited for the new G11 and I think that, after seeing it in an official reveal, it's got a good chance at taking my money next year or whenever it's out.

Last edited by usmabmass; 01-06-2015 at 09:17 AM..
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      01-06-2015, 10:40 AM   #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski View Post
The S-Class interior?


Why would I want this moronic clown face staring back at me all the time!!


i think it looks great, modern and classy.
I love how it is made in 3er too, but this not really fits to 7 imho.
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      01-06-2015, 02:55 PM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post
Scott, can you confirm this new graphic trend?
Sure he will talk some gibberish by saying, for 2015 a more distinct need to differentiate the various models since BMW is using new technology on shared platforms. BMW will want to communicate effectively to with their customers by offering small but important details (such as this). May not be noticeable from a consumer's perspective but the true BMW loyal customers will appreciate this detail.

Then when when production is exactly same as before he will then say, BMW while always striving for perfection but you all need to realize this is 'Pre-Production Model (whatever that means), and nothing is finite. BMW while wanting to entice new car buyers do not want to deviate from their true historical significance of the standard graphic. BMW with a great history does not want to forget about the pass.

Last edited by BananaCar; 01-06-2015 at 03:41 PM..
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      01-06-2015, 04:51 PM   #373
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaCar View Post
Sure he will talk some gibberish by saying, for 2015 a more distinct need to differentiate the various models since BMW is using new technology on shared platforms. BMW will want to communicate effectively to with their customers by offering small but important details (such as this). May not be noticeable from a consumer's perspective but the true BMW loyal customers will appreciate this detail.

Then when when production is exactly same as before he will then say, BMW while always striving for perfection but you all need to realize this is 'Pre-Production Model (whatever that means), and nothing is finite. BMW while wanting to entice new car buyers do not want to deviate from their true historical significance of the standard graphic. BMW with a great history does not want to forget about the pass.
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      01-06-2015, 06:36 PM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antares View Post
BMW (BMWG.DE) will pay 5.1 billion yuan ($820 million) to auto dealers in China to share the cost of BMW-forced overstocked showrooms.
BMW has been hit by the competition on the highly competitive Chinese market, leaving its product range increasingly exposed.

BMW started subsidizing its dealers in 2012, the payout in 2013 reaching around 3 billion yuan.
BMW shares closed down 3.3 percent at 85.08 euros.
For BMW, China is the key for retaining its crown of largest luxury auto maker by sales.
Yeah, I can read the headlines thanks.. what has any of that got to do with your comments about declining 3 series sales?

Just FYI though, BMW are not the first German company to do this to support their growth in China.

And also... good one for being concerned about share price... but look at the graphs.. it's a normal fluctuation and still continues the steep upward trend of the last few years.

Face it dude, you're just trying to trash talk BMW by picking any negative number to justify your apparent dislike for the company products.
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