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01-04-2015, 03:56 AM | #353 | |
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This my point Scott
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If both were better conceived, they would surely enjoyed much more success. |
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01-04-2015, 04:31 AM | #354 | |
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![]() ![]() ![]() ______________ I agree fully that the 3er is a technical benchmark at the moment; best engines, best suspension, refined automatic transmission, best "road-grip". Mercedes C-class has an ancient clumsy automatic, old unrefined engines and the ride (suspension system) is neither top comfortable neither responsive. What we are talking here are purely technical comparisons, that matter little in every day life and belong to customer-enthusiast discussions by a pint of beer in the evening. When I, and 99% of customers express a desire for a certain car, we look at the whole package. So, the car must appeal to me as a whole. Visually, how I sit, the feeling in the cabin, image, design; the product must be right; I'm not buying some technical chart telling me about marginal differences that I certainly will not experience in my real life driving scenario (except the terrible Mercedes automatic). So, to put the above discussion together; for this kind of money I'm getting something I can desire, as a whole product. This is where BMW has lost me and many other customers on this new 7er (we are seeing here). The actual lease on the 7er company car is going to be terminated after seeing these pictures. This is where BMW has lost me on a 3er for my personal use. ______________ BMW 3er lost more than 20% sales in 2014; for a car that is going to be replaced in 2018 this is a horrible result; apparently it was selling only when a total novelty and this only when Mercedes and Audi were being replaced. So a double catastrophe. Mercedes C is the 3rd most sold car in Germany at the moment; plus it is an absolute leader in sales to private customers (BMW is holding numbers only with fleet and lease sales). _________ third thing, you're mixing actual offer and BMW's upcoming new engines. Mercedes is also about to release a new generation of modular engines and a newly developed 9 speed automatic. Audi postponed for 1,5 years the new A4 to refine it. Mercedes is going to release the C-class Coupe in 8 months; with the new automatic, more refined suspension system, more luxurious interiors. More derivatives are following, with the new engines. GLC and GLC Coupe are also ready to start; much improved over the actual C-Klasse. _____________ To return to the matter at hand; I buy a car I want, not a technical discussion. The point is, there are cars with much better overall package than BMWs; from Mercedes to new Jaguars and even the upcoming 4-wheel drive Audis. |
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01-04-2015, 01:35 PM | #356 | |
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Well if it is an "over reaction" then why come LCI time the very things we forum users point out in these "grainy" pics - they look pretty good to me - get changed by bmw? I can make a list but you would know what I am talking about no? E60 5 ser, F25 X3 dam in the F25 X3 bmw even started updating the poor interior before the LCi, actually 1 m after I got the car bmw introduced cup holders with chrome inserts - latter added a lid to the cup holders as I pointed out on the 1st official pics - and also changed the poor poor plastic on the central airvents for new piano black plastic. 6 months after the car was introduced bmw were allready doing a slight makeover to the interior because of poor customer reception (I know I was one of the fools to buy that car imo one of the worst bmw I have ever driven - in all aspects. |
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01-04-2015, 03:02 PM | #357 | |
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01-04-2015, 05:52 PM | #358 |
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Got any numbers to back that up?
November Group report: "The BMW 3 Series has increased sales by 2.8% in the year-to-date (432,064 / prev. yr. 420,401)" Not forgetting that the 3-er coupe is now the 4-er "The BMW 4 Series models have achieved sales totalling 104,910 so far this year " Doesn't seem like a 20% drop to me. |
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01-04-2015, 07:35 PM | #359 | |
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01-04-2015, 11:23 PM | #360 | |
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01-05-2015, 02:48 AM | #361 | |
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http://www.kba.de/DE/Presse/Pressepo...cationFile&v=2 (before your snout begins to slurp, these are the official data of the Federal Republic of Germany; for the final proof call your Embassy, or better go there personally (you can never know if your call is not being re-directed)) Last edited by Antares; 01-05-2015 at 05:57 AM.. Reason: a member got blasted because of another trolling |
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01-05-2015, 05:24 AM | #362 | |
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![]() The figures I was using were from the Global BMW Group monthly reports, just to be clear. |
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01-05-2015, 06:19 AM | #363 | |
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_____ The discussion I started was about the home market since the carmakers are at their strongest there and the trends are also the first to be be visible on a market which is the first to get the new models, facelifts, tech/engine upgrades, new styling directions for the brand,... The trend seen here was also reported in the autumn of 2014 in the British media; namely, BMW was giving huge discounts for a 3er, while you had to wait for 3-4 months for a 4er Gran Coupe with no discount; the journalist was asking what is the point in overpaying for a correction of a flawed design (in getting the 4GC instead of the 3er). ___________ Mercedes is still rolling out the new C-Klasse; and that on its own home German market. The estate (station wagon) form is the most important in Europe; in Germany it can reach up to 90% in sales volume compared to the sedan/limousine. Mercedes T (station wagon) was introduced on the German market only in September 2014. This shows how badly BMW 3er is doing; especially if you compare it to the Audi A4 that is going to be replaced this year in autumn (while the 3er is new, gets replaced only in 2019). ___________ mentioning the sales of the 4er Coupe and other derivatives is out of context here, since Mercedes has yet to introduce the 4er equivalents: -Coupe in autumn of 2015 -Cabrio -4er GT/GC competitor Speaking about the global market is too complicated; first you have to rely on the carmakers numbers (that include cars shipped but not sold to the final customer-in UK you have huge areas filled with tens of thousands of unsold cars); global market is also about the brand's presence; so if a carmaker is weak in China it can loose 50% in volume sales compared to another brand. Last edited by Antares; 01-05-2015 at 06:25 AM.. |
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01-05-2015, 09:00 AM | #364 | |
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I'm not arguing this because I care whether BMW are leading the sales race or not, because I don't. I just saw it as you misrepresenting the situation for the purposes of your argument. I don't really care what Audi or Mercedes sell in comparison - that's why I've not mentioned them at all. As for the UK market, I think that journo was overlooking the fact that 5 door fastbacks are pretty popular over here, if he refers to the 3-er as a "flawed design" then it sounds like he is trying to find support for his personal tastes on design. As for incentives, I don't know about that to be honest, company pays my bills! but, since the 3-er has much lower base options than the 4GC, it doesn't surprise me if there is more discounting going on. I would be more surprised if equivalent 35d xDrive models (for example) where being incentivised significantly differently, but like I say, I really don't pay any attention to that sort of stuff. |
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01-05-2015, 09:26 AM | #365 | |
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01-05-2015, 10:56 AM | #366 |
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Ugh - that looks terrible. I was hoping BMW was on the right track. The current 7 was a massive improvement over the butchered previous (Bangle) version... and now it looks like it's heading back down hill again. Thankfully I love my 550xi - and if it turns out to be an ugly remodel, too, I'll be jumping ship to Audi - the S8 is a beautiful car.
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01-06-2015, 03:22 AM | #368 | |
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![]() I love cuurent 7, but this one is disapointing and a step back to the bangle's ugliness. I wait for a final pics, but honestly i beleive they will be just variations of this.
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01-06-2015, 06:14 AM | #369 | |
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BMW has been hit by the competition on the highly competitive Chinese market, leaving its product range increasingly exposed. BMW started subsidizing its dealers in 2012, the payout in 2013 reaching around 3 billion yuan. BMW shares closed down 3.3 percent at 85.08 euros. For BMW, China is the key for retaining its crown of largest luxury auto maker by sales. |
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01-06-2015, 10:09 AM | #370 |
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I think we need to keep some things in mind here:
1) Perspective makes a huge difference in pictures. These photos were clearly taken by a guy in a hurry with a cellphone with a wider angle lens than was proper, on a car that was jacked up on shipping blocks. Lets take a look at some examples: Look at the difference between the M5 front based on a too-close wide angle corner shot, and a straight on front shot: ![]() ![]() And from the rear: ![]() ![]() You coan see how the first images of each make the car look distorted/headlights too big, back windshield too small, etc. Now take into account a car being three inches too high because it's been jacked up with suspension blocks. Kind of getting my drift? Then, look at some of the interesting things coming with it: http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/01/06/ne...e-recognition/" rel="ugc" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.bmwblog.c...cognition/</a> Personally I'm excited for the new G11 and I think that, after seeing it in an official reveal, it's got a good chance at taking my money next year or whenever it's out. Last edited by usmabmass; 01-06-2015 at 10:17 AM.. |
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01-06-2015, 11:40 AM | #371 | |
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I love how it is made in 3er too, but this not really fits to 7 imho.
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01-06-2015, 03:55 PM | #372 |
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Sure he will talk some gibberish by saying, for 2015 a more distinct need to differentiate the various models since BMW is using new technology on shared platforms. BMW will want to communicate effectively to with their customers by offering small but important details (such as this). May not be noticeable from a consumer's perspective but the true BMW loyal customers will appreciate this detail.
Then when when production is exactly same as before he will then say, BMW while always striving for perfection but you all need to realize this is 'Pre-Production Model (whatever that means), and nothing is finite. BMW while wanting to entice new car buyers do not want to deviate from their true historical significance of the standard graphic. BMW with a great history does not want to forget about the pass. Last edited by BananaCar; 01-06-2015 at 04:41 PM.. |
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01-06-2015, 05:51 PM | #373 | |
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01-06-2015, 07:36 PM | #374 | |
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Just FYI though, BMW are not the first German company to do this to support their growth in China. And also... good one for being concerned about share price... but look at the graphs.. it's a normal fluctuation and still continues the steep upward trend of the last few years. Face it dude, you're just trying to trash talk BMW by picking any negative number to justify your apparent dislike for the company products. |
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