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      07-16-2017, 11:45 AM   #45
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1. fossil fuels are a limited resource. we will continue to use petroleum for other industries even if transport turns to ICE. we need to save as much as possible.
This is the hilarious big government must manage the world argument.......tyranny for your own good?.....

If that were the case then folks would be clamoring to get off this rock because eventually water, O2, food and every other natural resource would be exhausted including ability to make solar panels and windmills to power your fantasy EV of the future.

Progressives need to get over themselves.....when petroleum based fuels go up in price sufficiently then other technologies will become more feasible.....

And when that happens then maybe one of those technologies MAY be EV's or some other solution that someone comes up with

Until that happens government needs to stop stealing from taxpayers to pick winners and losers in the market place.....every time it tries to do so we end up with a disaster of perverted markets and products that require subsidies

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Originally Posted by danniexi View Post

2. EV will eventually take over the ICE. That's no question. Not in a decade, but maybe in our lifetime. The cars have proven themselves. There are many different ways to have a aero emissions vehicle without the use of batteries (hydrogen for example). It's the infrastructure that is the issue.

3. If you like cars, then you must realize that we NEED EVs on the road as soon as possible. Despite what the narrow minded think, electric vehicles will SAVE the ICE. By conserving the amount of fossil fuel we have left, the EV will be the main transport for everyone whereas the ICE will continue to be for the enthusiasts... weekend joy rides, Motorsport, etc. Think about horses being used for recreational purposes. Tld the same thing for the ICE.

4. There is absolutely no reason why ANYONE should be against the development of electric power in automotive applications. Hey have proven themselves in economy, emissions, and motorsport. They will continue to become better and better while at the same time being the saving grace of the ICE that we grew to know and love.
I'm a tool user....its that whole opposable thumb thing ya know?

I pick the tool thats best suited to my needs over the predicted life span of the tool.

You EV fanatics are like iPhone users who try to force YOUR choices on everyone else.

Different strokes for different folks......you want to spend extra cash to buy a tesla or some other EV thats your choice......but dont expect the rest of us to give a shit or fund your choices

EV's might be a good choice for you but they are not for most people and may never be.....

When an option comes along that is better suited for my own needs I will readily adopt it.....thats the thing about "Good Ideas".....people readily adopt them....and do so willingly without coercion

Am I the only one thats tired of hearing the "Preaching" from the church of EV worshipers?

You EV worshipers are worse than the fucking jehova's witnesses
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      07-16-2017, 05:04 PM   #46
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Well, horses aren't gone either.
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      07-16-2017, 05:04 PM   #47
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I'd like to know what these folks think they're going to do when the power periodically goes out?
OMG! We'll freeze to death and starve and there'll be mass hysteria!
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      07-16-2017, 08:09 PM   #48
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I guess you've never been through a prolonged blackout in a major urban area. I've been through 2 in the NYC area. Not pretty.one lightning strike and the grid was down for hours Boston to DC.
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      07-16-2017, 10:57 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Chappers 71 View Post
Who pays for all the extra power stations that would have to be built & what about the emissions from them?
You make a great point. Electric cars are "displaced emissions" vehicles, and how that electricity is produced varies widely from state to state and country to country. California, a pretty high percentage of renewable energy; West Virginia, not so much. You have to look at the overall "well to wheel" analysis.
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      07-16-2017, 11:08 PM   #50
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OMG! We'll freeze to death and starve and there'll be mass hysteria!
Sadly not far from the truth for most of america

Most of america doesnt have more than a day or two of food/water in the house

A partial tank of fuel

No means of heating (cooling) let alone powering a home or couple of circuits

I've lived in some of the more progressive states on the east coast in past and watched neighbors quite literally move out of their homes and into hotels hundreds of miles away when we lost power for a couple days during winter

I ran my wood stove as normal and fired up the generator periodically as needed.....non event for me.....

The reality of life is that your local supermarket only has 24 hrs of food.......

The fact of the matter is that sometime something bad will happen and the herd is going to get thinned, society/order will break down for some period of time and its gonna be messy
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      07-16-2017, 11:21 PM   #51
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You make a great point. Electric cars are "displaced emissions" vehicles, and how that electricity is produced varies widely from state to state and country to country. California, a pretty high percentage of renewable energy; West Virginia, not so much. You have to look at the overall "well to wheel" analysis.
And this is assuming you are in the climate change crowd and that the theory of man made climate change is true, and then for you to even give a damn for that to even matter. I don't believe the theory, and even if it was true, I don't give a dann. And both of these pools represent almost half the country. Then factor in that you give a dann and believe it so much you're willing to pay 25% more for your transportation and also accept the other headaches associated with ev and that ev is practical for you... Do you see how the pool of potential buyers keeps shrinking? You can expand it again with techno geeks but that's still only ending with a few percentage points of the population. I don't see ev dominating anytime soon.
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      07-17-2017, 01:00 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by fbsm View Post
Sadly not far from the truth for most of america

Most of america doesnt have more than a day or two of food/water in the house

A partial tank of fuel

No means of heating (cooling) let alone powering a home or couple of circuits

I've lived in some of the more progressive states on the east coast in past and watched neighbors quite literally move out of their homes and into hotels hundreds of miles away when we lost power for a couple days during winter

I ran my wood stove as normal and fired up the generator periodically as needed.....non event for me.....

The reality of life is that your local supermarket only has 24 hrs of food.......

The fact of the matter is that sometime something bad will happen and the herd is going to get thinned, society/order will break down for some period of time and its gonna be messy

Fear.

I mean, if you live in that much fear, then by all means, do not buy an EV. I hope you have a bunch of horses and cattle too instead of ICE cars, so you can use them when the gas runs out during the zombie apocalypse. The idea that you need to hoard everything so that you can live the rest of your life with nothing from the outside world? Ridiculous.
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      07-17-2017, 01:07 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by rightrudder View Post
You make a great point. Electric cars are "displaced emissions" vehicles, and how that electricity is produced varies widely from state to state and country to country. California, a pretty high percentage of renewable energy; West Virginia, not so much. You have to look at the overall "well to wheel" analysis.
Modern advancements have increased the efficiency of gas-turbine power plants, which is now the preferred "fossil fuel" way to make power. in most areas. They broke 50% efficiency barrier a while back and are up around 65%, which is impressive if you know anything about carnot engines. The best ICE engines are in the 20% range, for any practical and current usage, but that doesn't count all the energy wasted ferrying the fuel about, producing vehicles to shuttle fuel to service stations, the ships built to tank the fuel, etc. Beaming energy to houses to charge cars (even with transmission losses) still comes out significantly on top. Then you add renewable sources, like wind, hydroelectric, thermal, tidal, fusion, fission, etc., and you start to see the benefit. There's only one type of electron and there will be no need to be constantly trucking fuel across the country to service stations or cracking and storing 3 or 4 types of fuel at these locations. This is obviously further in the future, but one of the biggest reasons that EVs will continue become more mainstream and eventually replace ICE engines. Total replacement will be long down the line, but there are so many examples that can be drawn upon even in current tech. How much heavy industrial equipment uses direct drive ICEs? Virtually none, they are all hybrid drives because electric motors (rapidly replacing hydraulics by the way) generate far more torque and are able to move these giant monsters. Yes, there are many challenges along the way, but none that seem unsolvable or insurmountable. There are far more issues making sustained fission reactions or practical fast breeder reactors, although these are coming, they are likely a lot further off. The future is bright.
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      07-17-2017, 03:28 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Modern advancements have increased the efficiency of gas-turbine power plants, which is now the preferred "fossil fuel" way to make power. in most areas. They broke 50% efficiency barrier a while back and are up around 65%, which is impressive if you know anything about carnot engines. The best ICE engines are in the 20% range, for any practical and current usage, but that doesn't count all the energy wasted ferrying the fuel about, producing vehicles to shuttle fuel to service stations, the ships built to tank the fuel, etc. Beaming energy to houses to charge cars (even with transmission losses) still comes out significantly on top. Then you add renewable sources, like wind, hydroelectric, thermal, tidal, fusion, fission, etc., and you start to see the benefit. There's only one type of electron and there will be no need to be constantly trucking fuel across the country to service stations or cracking and storing 3 or 4 types of fuel at these locations. This is obviously further in the future, but one of the biggest reasons that EVs will continue become more mainstream and eventually replace ICE engines. Total replacement will be long down the line, but there are so many examples that can be drawn upon even in current tech. How much heavy industrial equipment uses direct drive ICEs? Virtually none, they are all hybrid drives because electric motors (rapidly replacing hydraulics by the way) generate far more torque and are able to move these giant monsters. Yes, there are many challenges along the way, but none that seem unsolvable or insurmountable. There are far more issues making sustained fission reactions or practical fast breeder reactors, although these are coming, they are likely a lot further off. The future is bright.
It's hard to beat the established petroleum infrastructure, arguments about efficiency aside. Especially with fuel as cheap as it is currently. I think as petroleum supplies dwindle, its use in making plastics will far outweigh propelling vehicles. I'm just glad that the total transition won't occur in my lifetime. Maybe an autonomous electric car would be the ticket when I'm 90 and unable to pass the driving test, but for the foreseeable future it's hydrocarbons over electrons.
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      07-17-2017, 08:13 AM   #55
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Fear.

I mean, if you live in that much fear, then by all means, do not buy an EV. I hope you have a bunch of horses and cattle too instead of ICE cars, so you can use them when the gas runs out during the zombie apocalypse. The idea that you need to hoard everything so that you can live the rest of your life with nothing from the outside world? Ridiculous.
The facts he listed are facts. I see it happen whenever hurricanes even approach. I see what power outages do when they hit. I also know the grid is currently way past the recommended amount and even small problems like a substation going down has blacked out the east coast for hours.

Do I live in fear of this? No. Does the prior poster? Not in the least. That was an explanation for you as to why we can't just plug in 5mm ev cars tomorrow.

Are we afraid of change or new tech? Beyond laughable. Do we know if there is going to be a meaningful amount of EVs we need to spend billions overhauling the grid. We probably should anyway instead of just slapping on bandaids like we have been but it hasn't happened yet.

The only fear I have about EVs is to get stuck on a room with a guy who can't stop talking about how great they are because my replies would not agree with his dementia and the conversation would go downhill fast.
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      07-17-2017, 08:23 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Modern advancements have increased the efficiency of gas-turbine power plants, which is now the preferred "fossil fuel" way to make power. in most areas. They broke 50% efficiency barrier a while back and are up around 65%, which is impressive if you know anything about carnot engines. The best ICE engines are in the 20% range, for any practical and current usage, but that doesn't count all the energy wasted ferrying the fuel about, producing vehicles to shuttle fuel to service stations, the ships built to tank the fuel, etc. Beaming energy to houses to charge cars (even with transmission losses) still comes out significantly on top. Then you add renewable sources, like wind, hydroelectric, thermal, tidal, fusion, fission, etc., and you start to see the benefit. There's only one type of electron and there will be no need to be constantly trucking fuel across the country to service stations or cracking and storing 3 or 4 types of fuel at these locations. This is obviously further in the future, but one of the biggest reasons that EVs will continue become more mainstream and eventually replace ICE engines. Total replacement will be long down the line, but there are so many examples that can be drawn upon even in current tech. How much heavy industrial equipment uses direct drive ICEs? Virtually none, they are all hybrid drives because electric motors (rapidly replacing hydraulics by the way) generate far more torque and are able to move these giant monsters. Yes, there are many challenges along the way, but none that seem unsolvable or insurmountable. There are far more issues making sustained fission reactions or practical fast breeder reactors, although these are coming, they are likely a lot further off. The future is bright.
What does this have to do with anything? It's not pertinent to the current thread in the least. There's virtually limitless petroleum for several centuries. The problem with EVs is not efficiency, it's capacity. There is virtually zero excess capacity on the power grid and hasn't been for decades. We need infrastructure from power plants, to substations, to lines, etc even now just to get back into the accepted safe margins. What if everyone switched to EVs? It's not like switching from hand to an electric razor. It's a meaningful drain on the power supply. For example, if the power grid delivers 100 units of power, the acceptable safe use is 90 units with a 10 unit buffer, we are currently at 98 units of use, what's adding 10 more units of power demand going to do?
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      07-17-2017, 08:30 AM   #57
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It's hard to beat the established petroleum infrastructure, arguments about efficiency aside. Especially with fuel as cheap as it is currently. I think as petroleum supplies dwindle, its use in making plastics will far outweigh propelling vehicles. I'm just glad that the total transition won't occur in my lifetime. Maybe an autonomous electric car would be the ticket when I'm 90 and unable to pass the driving test, but for the foreseeable future it's hydrocarbons over electrons.
True and global reserves continue to increase. The global reserve number is not how much oil there is in the world. It is how much oil that is accessible. Global oil reserves dropped by 1/3 When Obama shut down federal lands to new oil harvesting. Techniques such as tar sand and fracking brought most of that back. Anwr alone in Alaska could provide 80 years of oil demand in the US. Etc etc etc. Then throw in we could overnight switch to an unlimited renewable fuel source in ethanol like Brazil has, I don't see the concern.
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      07-17-2017, 10:18 AM   #58
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The facts he listed are facts. I see it happen whenever hurricanes even approach.
Well, besides stupidly living below sea level, I don't see this happening. If he chooses to live his life in irrational fear, that's his choice. Can't drive an EV because it's not a good "prepper" vehicle? Yeah. That was really a convincing argument there.
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      07-17-2017, 10:33 AM   #59
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      07-17-2017, 10:33 AM   #60
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And this is assuming you are in the climate change crowd and that the theory of man made climate change is true, and then for you to even give a damn for that to even matter. I don't believe the theory, and even if it was true, I don't give a dann. And both of these pools represent almost half the country. Then factor in that you give a dann and believe it so much you're willing to pay 25% more for your transportation and also accept the other headaches associated with ev and that ev is practical for you... Do you see how the pool of potential buyers keeps shrinking? You can expand it again with techno geeks but that's still only ending with a few percentage points of the population. I don't see ev dominating anytime soon.
It's not about us. It's about legacy. You may personally not care about what is left behind but I do (I just had a kid so my perspective clearly changed as opposed to when I was single).

There is more than enough evidence that supports climate change but I'm not one to support the overreaction of it unlike a lot of liberals who don't understand the repercussions of it. Personally, I simply support the advancement of technology and making this world a better place to live. I do NOT support extremism from either end. Forcing people to abandon fossil fuels is absolutely ridiculous and should never happen, but hindering/dampening technological progress that benefits everyone should be supported as well. Renewable energy has made leaps and bounds over the past decade (and most importantly, continues to be a cheaper/more economical) and we should continue to strive for better usage of such resources. But we should also continue to better refine and perfect fossil fuel access/consumption for the cleanest and best efficiency since it will still be one of mankinds most important resource (not just in terms of energy, but for uses in plastics/lubricants/etc which are far more important imo). It's all about balances, which for some reason, the population lacks these days.

This whole EV discussion is completely useless since at the end of the day, it's not about electric vehicles themselves. It's providing the entire population with the best infrastructure that is both balanced in terms of resource usages and economics (cheap is best obviously). The focus should be on the infrastructure itself, not pointing fingers at the automobile industry. Personally, I don't see a radical change in any of this in our lifetime. The growth in technology is there, but for mass market, it will take decades. We should keep that momentum growing for generations to come.
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      07-17-2017, 10:35 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Fear.

I mean, if you live in that much fear, then by all means, do not buy an EV. I hope you have a bunch of horses and cattle too instead of ICE cars, so you can use them when the gas runs out during the zombie apocalypse. The idea that you need to hoard everything so that you can live the rest of your life with nothing from the outside world? Ridiculous.
This isnt about fear

Its about dealing with reality of the world that we live in.

People survive because them plan for sub optimal situations

Its why most of us CHOOSE to wear seatbelts, helmets and keep a fire extinguisher near a fireplace/wood stove/kitchen

Individuals that make "Good Choices" survive/thrive.....those that dont remove themselves from the gene pool
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      07-17-2017, 11:09 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Fear.

I mean, if you live in that much fear, then by all means, do not buy an EV. I hope you have a bunch of horses and cattle too instead of ICE cars, so you can use them when the gas runs out during the zombie apocalypse. The idea that you need to hoard everything so that you can live the rest of your life with nothing from the outside world? Ridiculous.
This isnt about fear

Its about dealing with reality of the world that we live in.

People survive because them plan for sub optimal situations

Its why most of us CHOOSE to wear seatbelts, helmets and keep a fire extinguisher near a fireplace/wood stove/kitchen

Individuals that make "Good Choices" survive/thrive.....those that dont remove themselves from the gene pool
That last point is so false. Idiots thrive. Look at D.C., Wall Street or just your neighbors. Folks make almost amusingly poor decisions and live long, happy, oblivious lives. Seemingly more often than not, the planners die from stupid, unavoidable incidents.

Telling yourself that you can Darwin your way through this life might keep you busy, but it's so far from reality that you might as well just plan on aliens coming to save you.
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      07-17-2017, 11:17 AM   #63
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That last point is so false. Idiots thrive. Look at D.C., Wall Street or just your neighbors. Folks make almost amusingly poor decisions and live long, happy, oblivious lives. Seemingly more often than not, the planners due from stupid, unavoidable incidents.

Telling yourself that you can Darwin your way through this life might keep you busy, but it's so far from reality that you might as well just plan on aliens coming to save you.
You are correct......when there is an opportunity for the welfare state to prevent Darwin from actually allowing for a correction.....darwin awards candidates frequently live abnormal and unexpectedly long lives.

The historical record shows that its just a matter of time before there's a significant enough event that overwhelms the welfare state and allows darwin to do his thing......
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      07-17-2017, 11:20 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
That last point is so false. Idiots thrive. Look at D.C., Wall Street or just your neighbors. Folks make almost amusingly poor decisions and live long, happy, oblivious lives. Seemingly more often than not, the planners due from stupid, unavoidable incidents.

Telling yourself that you can Darwin your way through this life might keep you busy, but it's so far from reality that you might as well just plan on aliens coming to save you.
You are correct......when there is an opportunity for the welfare state to prevent Darwin from actually allowing for a correction.....darwin awards candidates frequently live abnormal and unexpectedly long lives.

The historical record shows that its just a matter of time before there's a significant enough event that overwhelms the welfare state and allows darwin to do his thing......
I guess I forgot about all the politicians and traders taking handouts. Unless you're including PACs as a part of federal welfare.
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      07-17-2017, 11:41 AM   #65
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I guess I forgot about all the politicians and traders taking handouts. Unless you're including PACs as a part of federal welfare.
The tangent that got started really revolved around personal choices (good/bad) on a much more basic level and the ability to take care of self/family when things go sideways.
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      07-17-2017, 11:51 AM   #66
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I guess I forgot about all the politicians and traders taking handouts. Unless you're including PACs as a part of federal welfare.
The tangent that got started really revolved around personal choices (good/bad) on a much more basic level and the ability to take care of self/family when things go sideways.
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