The 911 Dakar and the CSL

[MachinesWithSouls]

Each week I do a mailbag, and someone this week asked a good question: Why is Porsche able to create such an outside-the-box concept like the 911 Dakar vs the basically same-as-M4 CSL?

To answer it, we need to talk about why the 911 and 718 have always bested BMWs sports cars like the Z4.

https://machineswithsouls.com/2022/1...mw-vs-porsche/

[Nonsensical]

Originally Posted by MachinesWithSouls

Each week I do a mailbag, and someone this week asked a good question: Why is Porsche able to create such an outside-the-box concept like the 911 Dakar vs the basically same-as-M4 CSL?

To answer it, we need to talk about why the 911 and 718 have always bested BMWs sports cars like the Z4.

https://machineswithsouls.com/2022/1...mw-vs-porsche/

Thanks for the post!

[ScullyD]

Its fair to say M missed the mark, but i'm not sure what people are expecting them to do instead. BMW M has always been about doing motorsport versions of regular cars. Thats their brands ethos. With exceptions, they've made cars like the M1, but that is so long ago.

In the past, enthusiasts loved BMW M because they gave you a great M engine that was drastically different then you got with the base model. Over time, that has blurred more and more where at face value, the S58 seemingly shares alot with the B58 on which its based.

So when it comes to the 3.0 CSL, you can hope they would have done a bespoke chassis, a bespoke engine, or a bespoke gearbox or any combination of those to make a really special car. BMW is already winning DTM with the M4 GT3, its possible they could have put more of the P58 engine from the DTM into a car like the 3.0 CSL instead of the S58, but they it would have needed an automated gearbox.

But I feel like everytime someone says "M missed the mark", they just want another high-revving E92 engined car to come back that weighs 2500 pounds. Or they want BMW M to make a mid-engined high revving supercar that looks like an i8 (cause lord knows there aren't enough high revving mid-engined sports or super cars) but have it be so great, BMW is losing tons of money on every car ala the Lexus LFA. Neither of these two things are happening, and the people wishing for that don't have the money to buy that car anyway if BMW put it on sale.

I think M slightly botched the whole M4 CSL/3.0 CSL thing. They should have made an M4 "CSL" with a wing, downforce, a cage to chase a faster N-Ring laptime if just to get people excited (its evident that the M4 CSL isn't as fast around a track as it could have been if given proper aero). And then if you wanted the CSL in the way they launched it (ie no cage, no wing, like a "touring"), you could order that with an option and even opt for a manual transmission and less power. Then forget about the limited run 3.0 CSL thing entirely. People aren't that excited about the M4 CSL anyways, so charging 750k EUR for a car with different body work, less power and a stick to sit in a museum sort of misses the entire point on which the brand was based in the first place.

[MachinesWithSouls]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Its fair to say M missed the mark, but i'm not sure what people are expecting them to do instead. BMW M has always been about doing motorsport versions of regular cars. Thats their brands ethos. With exceptions, they've made cars like the M1, but that is so long ago.

In the past, enthusiasts loved BMW M because they gave you a great M engine that was drastically different then you got with the base model. Over time, that has blurred more and more where at face value, the S58 seemingly shares alot with the B58 on which its based.

So when it comes to the 3.0 CSL, you can hope they would have done a bespoke chassis, a bespoke engine, or a bespoke gearbox or any combination of those to make a really special car. BMW is already winning DTM with the M4 GT3, its possible they could have put more of the P58 engine from the DTM into a car like the 3.0 CSL instead of the S58, but they it would have needed an automated gearbox.

But I feel like everytime someone says "M missed the mark", they just want another high-revving E92 engined car to come back that weighs 2500 pounds. Or they want BMW M to make a mid-engined high revving supercar that looks like an i8 (cause lord knows there aren't enough high revving mid-engined sports or super cars) but have it be so great, BMW is losing tons of money on every car ala the Lexus LFA. Neither of these two things are happening, and the people wishing for that don't have the money to buy that car anyway if BMW put it on sale.

I think M slightly botched the whole M4 CSL/3.0 CSL thing. They should have made an M4 "CSL" with a wing, downforce, a cage to chase a faster N-Ring laptime if just to get people excited (its evident that the M4 CSL isn't as fast around a track as it could have been if given proper aero). And then if you wanted the CSL in the way they launched it (ie no cage, no wing, like a "touring"), you could order that with an option and even opt for a manual transmission and less power. Then forget about the limited run 3.0 CSL thing entirely. People aren't that excited about the M4 CSL anyways, so charging 750k EUR for a car with different body work, less power and a stick to sit in a museum sort of misses the entire point on which the brand was based in the first place.

You're correct. I wouldn't expect them to create a bespoke M4, with an NA engine, given they have none left.

But then you look at the price, and then you look at the Corvette Z06, with a bespoke NA motor, or Porsche with its 911 GT3 - if they can do it at a much cheaper price, why can't bmw?

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by MachinesWithSouls

You're correct. I wouldn't expect them to create a bespoke M4, with an NA engine, given they have none left.

But then you look at the price, and then you look at the Corvette Z06, with a bespoke NA motor, or Porsche with its 911 GT3 - if they can do it at a much cheaper price, why can't bmw?

I think BMW could have just created a more special engine that was turbocharged, like what Maserati did with the MC20 (which is going to get a lot more people talking about it after this week).

Even a better version of the S58 in the CSL or CS would have sufficed, then just raising boost pressure.