Recently rented a Miata and I'm confused

[wtwo3]

I've always heard great things about the Miata. Sayings like, "the answer is always Miata". So I decided to rent one to see what the hype was about.

And I'm confused.

This isn't meant to be a troll post. I'm trying to figure out what I missed. The driving experience was incredibly underwhelming. I didn't expect the Miata to be fast.... but I didn't expect it to be so slow that the entire time all I could think about was how slow it is.

But even beyond that... one can argue it's not about the speed and power, but about the handling and feel of it. Well even on that front, it LEANNNNED in the corners like my SUV. And while the steering was well weighted and had good feel, I felt it lacked precision. The entire experience felt loosey goosey. When I think sports car, I think planted and precise.

In contrast - and I know this is in an entirely different pricing bracket - I recently rented a base 718 boxster. That felt like a sports car. It wasn't fast but it wasn't so slow that it bothered me. And it felt incredibly planted in the corners.

I was expecting the Miata to feel more like a sports car especially given its weight. Maybe my expectations were too high? But even my little Mini cooper feels more planted in the corners (granted, I was able to carry more speed through corners with the Miata, it just didn't feel very confidence inspiring).

All this is to say - I don't think it's a "bad" car by any stretch. It's a fine car and especially when you consider the price point, you could even say a "good" car - It's just not what I was expecting I suppose. The one thing that I did really enjoy was the shifter. It felt very mechanical and precise with just the perfect amount of force needed to push it into each gear. The car also looks phenomenal.

What did I get wrong? I'm wondering if some simple mods like front/rear sway bars and coilovers will fix 90% of what I experienced. And a supercharger

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I'm wondering if some simple mods like front/rear sway bars and coilovers will fix 90% of what I experienced.

That's my understanding. Miata's stock setup is quite different from most other modern sport/sporty cars. They follow the German tautness, while the Miata follows the British roadsters of more movement is equal to more feel. I think I understand where the Miata tuning philosophy is coming from - having more movement in suspension will allow for more time to react to weight transfer, will make the car more forgiving and easier to control near, at and over the limit.

With that being said, I think it's more of a preference than a technical better/worse consideration. I personally also prefer a more "serious" car with stiffer suspension, less body roll and squat/dive, heavier controls, etc.

I had a similar experience comparing a BRZ and an ND Miata and asked on miata.net here. The bottom line I understood from that discussion is that aftermarket suspension can mostly "solve" this behavior. I ended up with the BRZ then, and still own it and love it.

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I didn't expect it to be so slow that the entire time all I could think about was how slow it is.

Did you utilize the entire rev-range? Did you keep the gears low and RPM high to get the power? I suspect that you're used to turbocharged engines with plenty of power in lower RPMs. Small displacement NA engines need to be revved to redline to get their power.

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I recently rented a base 718 boxster. That felt like a sports car.

Agreed. I drove a 981 Cayman GT4 and a 982 Boxster GTS4.0 on twisty roads for an extended time and they drive exactly like I imagined and hoped they would.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

That's my understanding. Miata's stock setup is quite different from most other modern sport/sporty cars. They follow the German tautness, while the Miata follows the British roadsters of more movement is equal to more feel. I think I understand where the Miata tuning philosophy is coming from - having more movement in suspension will allow for more time to react to weight transfer, will make the car more forgiving and easier to control near, at and over the limit.

With that being said, I think it's more of a preference than a technical better/worse consideration. I personally also prefer a more "serious" car with stiffer suspension, less body roll and squat/dive, heavier controls, etc.

I had a similar experience comparing a BRZ and an ND Miata and asked on miata.net here. The bottom line I understood from that discussion is that aftermarket suspension can mostly "solve" this behavior. I ended up with the BRZ then, and still own it and love it.



Did you utilize the entire rev-range? Did you keep the gears low and RPM high to get the power? I suspect that you're used to turbocharged engines with plenty of power in lower RPMs. Small displacement NA engines need to be revved to redline to get their power.


Agreed. I drove a 981 Cayman GT4 and a 982 Boxster GTS4.0 on twisty roads for an extended time and they drive exactly like I imagined and hoped they would.

I haven't driven a BRZ/GR86 - but now I feel like I need to.

I did try utilizing the entire rev-range. I'm suspecting the feeling of it being too slow might be a problem with my perspective. I daily a g80 m3 which obviously warps my sense of speed. That being said, I have a Mini cooper with the B48 motor and even that feels quite a bit quicker (even if it truly isn't)... in that case the turbos are working their magic.

I think an extra 20-30 hp would work wonders for the Miata. I've also driven a 718 GTS 4.0 and that didn't feel slow despite being NA like the Miata (obviously big power difference).

[freakystyly]

Got to ask, was it a manual? You'd get a few extra suspension upgrades like Bilstein shocks, LSD and strut bracing with the manual RF. At least up here in Canada.

0-60 time is pretty much on par with a JCW mini. Not exactly what the car is known for anyways.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Got to ask, was it a manual? You'd get a few extra suspension upgrades like Bilstein shocks, LSD and strut bracing with the manual RF. At least up here in Canada.

0-60 time is pretty much on par with a JCW mini. Not exactly what the car is known for anyways.

It was a manual. The shifter was great and one of the things I came away with a positive impression on. My G80 is also a manual so I'm used to driving manual on a semi-daily basis.

Agreed it's definitely not about 0-60. And maybe I've just gotten too used to turbo motors with low-end torque. I tried keeping it in the higher revs but was still a bit turned off by the lack of power.

[BlkGS]

You didn't miss anything. The Miata experience is about predictability, not.outroght performance. It's about feeling like you're going quickly when you're not.

Miatas have a huge following because they're the automotive equivalent of vinyl records. People like them to try to show how unique they are and how much they alcare about stuff that you probably have never heard of.

[pikkagtr]

welcome to the crowd that has experienced the most overrated car in automotive history

[Burrcold]

A BRZ/GR86 is more engaging in basically every aspect compared to the Miata...with the exception of the top-down experience.

[Alfisti]

Miata only really works on the perfect rural twisty B road, just not enough power.

[RM7]

Go to autocross, you will cease to be confused.

It's soft because it can be, without breaking traction, because it's light and low. You can increase handling significantly by coil-overs, stiffening the suspension (sways), etc., but that's from where it starts.

In the tight stuff, they never look like they are going fast, but they carry more speed through the turns. They can change direction much faster than heavier cars, so they carry more speed, even if not reaching the same straight speeds.

Now, it has to be a fairly tight course, but that's where they excel.

I think James' throttlehouse mods were very tasteful, a little lowering and stiffening of the suspension to solve the "soft" issue. It's meant to be a visceral experience with sensations and sensory stuff going on.

I'm not sure why, but the BRZ/GR86 never do as well as the miatas at AX. The BRZ/GR86 does carry significantly more weight, so that might be it.

[BlkGS]

AX is so BUGELY dependent on who sets up the course. Miatas historically were popular in AX because they were small and cheap and so people made them into race cars, meaning a lot of the AX organIers would have them, and so they'd design courses that worked for them and their Miata buddies.

Go to an AX set up by people that aren't into Miatas and the tables change a lot. If the course is faster, hitting 50-60 mph in multiple places Miatas fall off the map. But if you're on a course that's a 20-30 mph course that's super tight, the Miata is tough to beat.

The SCCA group in NC was all Miata owners. Their courses were TINY, with constant direction changes where weight and tires alone were what mattered. The only straight line in their courses was the ending straight for maybe 50'.

[XutvJet]

The RF with the newer, higher revving motor is a low to mid 14 second car and does 0-60 in the 5.7 range. Not exactly slow, but you need to shift it at redline and launch it hard to do that.

"Ohio Enthusiast" is spot on with his post. In stock form, the Miatas have always been soft, high riding, and with lots of roll. The car was designed to appease the larger subset of drivers that want something sporting and generally comfy for a Sunday drive.

For those that want more, it is so easy. I have four friends with NA and NB Miatas. Two have the standard Flyin Miata turbo kits, one is a factory turbo Mazdaspeed NB, and the other a cherry naturally aspirated NA. I've worked on all these cars, including installing coilovers on the Mazdaspeed last weekend. The chassis is pure race car underneath. Double wishbone front suspension, an awesome multi-link rear, tons of chassis support, torque arm from the trans to differential, etc. You can tell weight management was the prime factor.

Quality coilovers, tires and proper size wheels, rollbar setup (non-RFs), and pads, massively changes the dynamics of all Miatas. Sure, it will not be fast in a straightline, but on twisty and tighter roads and tracks, it excels and it will often outrun much faster, but heavier and worse handling performance cars. Adding power meaningful power requires either a turbo or supercharger. With either of those mods, the Miatas still remain controllable. I love driving the Flyin Miata turbo NBs. They are quick.

When shopping for a fun car a few years ago, I really thought the RF was it. I drove one and like the OP noted, the car did feel rather underwhelming. It had no real urgency and I was expecting more of an induction wail as I revved it out to 7500rpms. It was just linear and too quiet. The handling didn't bother me as I would have done coilovers and such. The engine was my concern as was the interior room. I'm 6' 1" and it was tight for me and there was no real interior storage. On a whim, I then drove a 987.2 Cayman and that was it. It was more raw, more focused on being a sports car, louder, urgent, connected, faster, and TONS more interior room and storage space.

With respect to power though, owning a late model turbo BMW real jades your perspective when driving a naturally aspirated, higher revving performance engine. Even after nearly 3 years of ownership, I still have to remind myself that in order to make my Cayman perform, I've got to keep the revs above 5000rpms and drive it in anger. My M235 and current M2 made me a lazy driver due to how torquey and flexible the N55 is at most any rpm.

With that said, I will ALWAYS take the keys to the slower Cayman if I had to choose. It is an event every time. My friends feel the same about their Miatas.

[M3Sleeper]

Your M3 is fast, handles well, looks good, and overall is very desirable.

Its like having a hot girl...then deciding to try out some ugly girl...then you go back and tell your friends the ugly girl is just not doing it for me....I think Ill go back to the hot girl.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

AX is so BUGELY dependent on who sets up the course. Miatas historically were popular in AX because they were small and cheap and so people made them into race cars, meaning a lot of the AX organIers would have them, and so they'd design courses that worked for them and their Miata buddies.

Go to an AX set up by people that aren't into Miatas and the tables change a lot. If the course is faster, hitting 50-60 mph in multiple places Miatas fall off the map. But if you're on a course that's a 20-30 mph course that's super tight, the Miata is tough to beat.

The SCCA group in NC was all Miata owners. Their courses were TINY, with constant direction changes where weight and tires alone were what mattered. The only straight line in their courses was the ending straight for maybe 50'.

The Miata is not a long track car, just like a high powered performance car is often like the ideal auto-x or tight track car. Miata are also great cars to learn how to race, dynamics, etc. Many professional drivers got their start in Miatas.

Miatas are exceptional, fun B road and auto-x cars. They are cheap, reliable, simple, easy to work on, and the sky is the limit with respect to how you want to modify one. An LS swap Miata is not overly difficult if you want to make yourself a current day Cobra. It could easily be done for $20-30K including the cost of a well cared for NA/NB Miata, suspension, wheels, tires, etc. I'd MUCH rather have a basic LS swap NB Miata with a hard top for $30K all in vs something like a later model Camaro or Mustang. The Miata would be way more fun, engaging, unique, an overall better performing car, and probably more reliable too.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by M3Sleeper

Your M3 is fast, handles well, looks good, and overall is very desirable. Its like having a hot girl...then deciding to try out some ugly girl...then you go back and tell your friends the ugly girl is just not doing it for me....I think Ill go back to the hot girl.

^^ One of the most awesome forum posts of this century.

[Phillies8008]

I'm not sure it's really fair to compare the Miata to the Cayman, frankly. The Miata's MSRP is $30-38k, and the Cayman starts at $75k. It really shouldn't be surprising that the Cayman is the superior car; it'd damn well better be at about 2x the cost (and realistically much more than that).

The Miata's competition is the BRZ, GR86, etc. – if you can afford a Cayman, you're almost certainly buying that, not a Miata. I don't (and never have) owned a Miata nor a Cayman, so I don't really have a dog in the fight, but let's at least be fair about it.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

I'm not sure it's really fair to compare the Miata to the Cayman, frankly. The Miata's MSRP is $30-38k, and the Cayman starts at $75k. It really shouldn't be surprising that the Cayman is the superior car; it'd damn well better be at about 2x the cost (and realistically much more than that).

The Miata's competition is the BRZ, GR86, etc. – if you can afford a Cayman, you're almost certainly buying that, not a Miata. I don't (and never have) owned a Miata nor a Cayman, so I don't really have a dog in the fight, but let's at least be fair about it.

If you're talking about me, my Cayman was a 2011 model (MSRP of $65K) and was $31K and much cheaper than the new RF Miata I was considering. I still very much like the RF and drool over ones that are done up properly.

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

If you're talking about me, my Cayman was a 2011 model (MSRP of $65K) and was $31K and much cheaper than the new RF Miata I was considering. I still very much like the RF and drool over ones that are done up properly.

Even then, I'm not sure it's fair to compare a used Cayman to a new Miata – that's not really apples-to-apples, IMO. A 15 year old car that's going for $31K had damned well be better than a new one selling for roughly the same money. I'd better have a really, really good reason to pay almost the same money for a 15 year old car as a brand new car with zero miles on the odometer and a manufacturer's warranty.

I just think that comparing the Cayman to the Miata is pointless – the Cayman is always going to win, and should.

But I agree that the Miata's looks are fantastic, and I personally think they have the most beautiful red in the auto industry. A Soul Red Miata RF with about 200 more horsepower would be amazing.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

I'm not sure it's really fair to compare the Miata to the Cayman, frankly. The Miata's MSRP is $30-38k, and the Cayman starts at $75k. It really shouldn't be surprising that the Cayman is the superior car; it'd damn well better be at about 2x the cost (and realistically much more than that).

The Miata's competition is the BRZ, GR86, etc. – if you can afford a Cayman, you're almost certainly buying that, not a Miata. I don't (and never have) owned a Miata nor a Cayman, so I don't really have a dog in the fight, but let's at least be fair about it.

Yeah fully acknowledge it isn't a fair comparison given the price point. I guess it was more a benchmark on "feel". I didn't go in expecting the miata to perform anywhere near the 718. I was more expecting it to feel somewhat similar in terms of plantedness and sharpness. But it was a very opposite feeling that I got.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by M3Sleeper

Your M3 is fast, handles well, looks good, and overall is very desirable.

Its like having a hot girl...then deciding to try out some ugly girl...then you go back and tell your friends the ugly girl is just not doing it for me....I think Ill go back to the hot girl.

Sometimes you gotta try the ugly ones to remind yourself that you have it good

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The RF with the newer, higher revving motor is a low to mid 14 second car and does 0-60 in the 5.7 range. Not exactly slow, but you need to shift it at redline and launch it hard to do that.

"Ohio Enthusiast" is spot on with his post. In stock form, the Miatas have always been soft, high riding, and with lots of roll. The car was designed to appease the larger subset of drivers that want something sporting and generally comfy for a Sunday drive.

For those that want more, it is so easy. I have four friends with NA and NB Miatas. Two have the standard Flyin Miata turbo kits, one is a factory turbo Mazdaspeed NB, and the other a cherry naturally aspirated NA. I've worked on all these cars, including installing coilovers on the Mazdaspeed last weekend. The chassis is pure race car underneath. Double wishbone front suspension, an awesome multi-link rear, tons of chassis support, torque arm from the trans to differential, etc. You can tell weight management was the prime factor.

Quality coilovers, tires and proper size wheels, rollbar setup (non-RFs), and pads, massively changes the dynamics of all Miatas. Sure, it will not be fast in a straightline, but on twisty and tighter roads and tracks, it excels and it will often outrun much faster, but heavier and worse handling performance cars. Adding power meaningful power requires either a turbo or supercharger. With either of those mods, the Miatas still remain controllable. I love driving the Flyin Miata turbo NBs. They are quick.

When shopping for a fun car a few years ago, I really thought the RF was it. I drove one and like the OP noted, the car did feel rather underwhelming. It had no real urgency and I was expecting more of an induction wail as I revved it out to 7500rpms. It was just linear and too quiet. The handling didn't bother me as I would have done coilovers and such. The engine was my concern as was the interior room. I'm 6' 1" and it was tight for me and there was no real interior storage. On a whim, I then drove a 987.2 Cayman and that was it. It was more raw, more focused on being a sports car, louder, urgent, connected, faster, and TONS more interior room and storage space.

With respect to power though, owning a late model turbo BMW real jades your perspective when driving a naturally aspirated, higher revving performance engine. Even after nearly 3 years of ownership, I still have to remind myself that in order to make my Cayman perform, I've got to keep the revs above 5000rpms and drive it in anger. My M235 and current M2 made me a lazy driver due to how torquey and flexible the N55 is at most any rpm.

With that said, I will ALWAYS take the keys to the slower Cayman if I had to choose. It is an event every time. My friends feel the same about their Miatas.

Yeah the 718 I drove was a newer base model and, like i said, while it wasn't fast, it wasn't so slow that it bothered me. I don't NEED the power that my M3 has - but the feeling of precision and plantedness the M3 provides, I felt was missing in the Miata while being very present (even more so) in the 718. And maybe it's just me, but I equate sports cars with sharp handling and planted, flat through corners type of feelings.

Totally get the AX argument - and by sheer difference in weight the Miata would undoubtedly excel in that area. But on the road it just wasn't the type of fun I was expecting.

I'm so curious to try a Miata that's been modified with sway bars and coilovers and see how that feels.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Sometimes you gotta try the ugly ones to remind yourself that you have it good

True only with respect to automobiles, but not in the case of women (or if under 30 - girls). Life is too short to experiment with what it's like to wake up with rolls of fat draped over you (or worse).