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      12-20-2022, 12:27 AM   #23
c1pher
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I think what Toyota has done is the best alternative. I still feel hybrid and plug in hybrid are the best options utilizing what each type of technology offer. You get the range and flexibility of gas, the efficiency and torque of EV. While apparently we will never run out of oil, we will definitely run out of EV materials, unless we discover a planet with unobtainium on it that we can exploit.
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      12-20-2022, 12:41 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Davil View Post
I donít hate them at all. They are a very sensible choice for the masses. Most people have zero interest in driving, maybe less than zero. These type of vehicles are perfect for them. They are an appliance that gets them from a to b.

Better these than the endless parade of shitty diesel SUVs that 80% of people seem to use to ruin your day.

Maybe one day self driving will actually help them to actually drive at the correct speed limit instead of 20 km/h below and let them just use their phone legally when driving rather than being dangerously distracted.

I think they will be a long term win for people like us that like actual cars.
I think there are multiple problems associated with EVs. One, they are expensive compared to traditional vehicles, that is improving but not on parity.

Two, EV owners tend to take on an elitist, snobby attitude, this is a generalization of course, but is perpetuated, and since most EV owners are more affluent, it makes them targets of scorn.

Three, the business of mining the materials and the conditions under which people are treated to extract them, is problematic since we are continuing to exploit people and raping the environment worse than we do for getting oil. Some estimates place an EV as dirtier than a gas vehicle for the first 60,000 miles, on average.

Four, we are discovering that there just isnít enough metals to go around and this will keep EV prices high. We can argue that battery tech will catch up, but if you canít recycle the material, it doesnít really matter.

Five, there is the belief that EVs are another government opportunity to control peopleís lives. Not being able to drive or charge when you want etc. we have already started seeing this due to grid issues.

Six, as implied in five, the electrical grid simply cannot support everyone driving an EV as demonstrated in California during the Summer. We can argue that the grid just needs to catch up but at least in the US, we arenít growing the infrastructure fast enough to meet an all EV demand any time soon.

Seven, range anxiety is a real thing and EVs still do not offer the range, in most cases, of a regular gas vehicle or fuel flexibility as gas. People who argue that most people charge at home, really do not understand that there are some people who have to commute 100 miles each way or like to travel. I literally have no public EV charging options where I live.

Eight, rates for charging are all over the place and the once held belief that itís less expensive to charge a vehicle as compared to fuel a vehicle are proving untrue in increasing cases. Some states donít have reduced evening charging rates, public charging will tack on extra fees for convenience or fast charging etc that can make it more expensive than simply paying for gas.

Those are just a few thoughts that come to my mind off the top of my head.
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      12-20-2022, 07:01 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by c1pher View Post
I think there are multiple problems associated with EVs. One, they are expensive compared to traditional vehicles, that is improving but not on parity.

Two, EV owners tend to take on an elitist, snobby attitude, this is a generalization of course, but is perpetuated, and since most EV owners are more affluent, it makes them targets of scorn.

Three, the business of mining the materials and the conditions under which people are treated to extract them, is problematic since we are continuing to exploit people and raping the environment worse than we do for getting oil. Some estimates place an EV as dirtier than a gas vehicle for the first 60,000 miles, on average.

Four, we are discovering that there just isnít enough metals to go around and this will keep EV prices high. We can argue that battery tech will catch up, but if you canít recycle the material, it doesnít really matter.

Five, there is the belief that EVs are another government opportunity to control peopleís lives. Not being able to drive or charge when you want etc. we have already started seeing this due to grid issues.

Six, as implied in five, the electrical grid simply cannot support everyone driving an EV as demonstrated in California during the Summer. We can argue that the grid just needs to catch up but at least in the US, we arenít growing the infrastructure fast enough to meet an all EV demand any time soon.

Seven, range anxiety is a real thing and EVs still do not offer the range, in most cases, of a regular gas vehicle or fuel flexibility as gas. People who argue that most people charge at home, really do not understand that there are some people who have to commute 100 miles each way or like to travel. I literally have no public EV charging options where I live.

Eight, rates for charging are all over the place and the once held belief that itís less expensive to charge a vehicle as compared to fuel a vehicle are proving untrue in increasing cases. Some states donít have reduced evening charging rates, public charging will tack on extra fees for convenience or fast charging etc that can make it more expensive than simply paying for gas.

Those are just a few thoughts that come to my mind off the top of my head.
Well said! The only thing I would add is that EV's threaten the end of performance and enthusiast cars as we know them today. For many people, that's a deal breaker.
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      12-20-2022, 11:10 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by IcewaterPete View Post
Honestly, it looks like a model 3 rip off.
Rub your eyes and look again
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      12-20-2022, 11:14 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by IcewaterPete View Post
I agree there is no doubt the quality of it will blow Tesla out of the water.

As someone who lives in a place with cold winters, an electric car as they currently function is nothing more than a useless novelty.

Aroundelway for you to get blacklisted by Tesla is ridiculously short sighted. Iíd bet you will get the last laugh as his company IMHO is going down now that the big guys are full on pressing with their far superior products and execution capabilities.
Why do you think he bought Twitter? So that he could sell off billions worth of Tesla shares before they tanked, giving him a legitimate "alibi" without raising too much concern for the selloff
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      12-20-2022, 11:18 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Davil View Post
I donít hate them at all. They are a very sensible choice for the masses. Most people have zero interest in driving, maybe less than zero. These type of vehicles are perfect for them. They are an appliance that gets them from a to b.

Better these than the endless parade of shitty diesel SUVs that 80% of people seem to use to ruin your day.

Maybe one day self driving will actually help them to actually drive at the correct speed limit instead of 20 km/h below and let them just use their phone legally when driving rather than being dangerously distracted.

I think they will be a long term win for people like us that like actual cars.
Your latest acquisition is electric; sorry, I meant to say, electrifying
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      12-20-2022, 04:25 PM   #29
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Elon has plans to use Twitter as a payment system. It's nice when you already have subscribers and all you do is turn on functionality.
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      12-20-2022, 06:45 PM   #30
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The grid is fine and can support more electric cars.

If you think mining minerals is problematic from a human rights perspective oh boy do you need to do some digging on oil and gas discovery and production in pretty much anywhere but here, Canada and the North Sea. Even if you do, itís a limited resource that does immense damage to this planet that can be easily mitigated.

There is no magical answer but there are plenty of alternatives that donít involve contributing to climate change more than we already are.

That whole thing felt like a Fox News induced rant uncle Larry would go off on at thanksgiving. Each and every point has a great counter argument based on science but it will get lost in the noise of opinion by people who are either unwilling or incapable of accepting that science and facts have no place for opinions or feelings.
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      12-20-2022, 10:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundelway View Post
The grid is fine and can support more electric cars.

If you think mining minerals is problematic from a human rights perspective oh boy do you need to do some digging on oil and gas discovery and production in pretty much anywhere but here, Canada and the North Sea. Even if you do, itís a limited resource that does immense damage to this planet that can be easily mitigated.

There is no magical answer but there are plenty of alternatives that donít involve contributing to climate change more than we already are.

That whole thing felt like a Fox News induced rant uncle Larry would go off on at thanksgiving. Each and every point has a great counter argument based on science but it will get lost in the noise of opinion by people who are either unwilling or incapable of accepting that science and facts have no place for opinions or feelings.
So much this. People need to Go read the latest MotorTrend article on EVís and the number of fallacies needing debunking.
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      12-20-2022, 10:18 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundelway View Post
The grid is fine and can support more electric cars.

If you think mining minerals is problematic from a human rights perspective oh boy do you need to do some digging on oil and gas discovery and production in pretty much anywhere but here, Canada and the North Sea. Even if you do, itís a limited resource that does immense damage to this planet that can be easily mitigated.

There is no magical answer but there are plenty of alternatives that donít involve contributing to climate change more than we already are.

That whole thing felt like a Fox News induced rant uncle Larry would go off on at thanksgiving. Each and every point has a great counter argument based on science but it will get lost in the noise of opinion by people who are either unwilling or incapable of accepting that science and facts have no place for opinions or feelings.
You do have a point, however, respectfully, you are wrong in believing science and "facts" are devoid of opinions and feelings.

It was known to the oil industry since the 30s that they were polluting the planet and yet, government after government the world over, not only ignored it, they subsidised it by privatising the oil and gas industry and deregulating everything. Greed takes over everytime and science is ignored to death.

There is more than enough evidence, scientifically and otherwise, that we could save the planet this way or that, but we don't because "we don't feel like it" as we're mostly governed by greedy old buggers.

Until such time as economic growth is brought down to Earth and off it's high horse as a prime mover of social order, I'm afraid, nothing will change substantially enough to be meaningful.

Science is only a tool similar to a wrench; what the world needs is an able and responsible mechanic - the wrench on its own won't do.
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      12-21-2022, 04:50 AM   #33
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EVs are better for environment after 80-120k km depending on model. Prior to that they are worse.

I do about 5000km a year in each of my cars. So itís going to take 16 to 24 years before I feel any guilt. In the meantime Iíll feel better about myself.

Of course thatís me. I have no commute and drive for enjoyment.

If I was unfortunate enough to have a commute I might get an EV. But I donít. And I wonít.
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      12-21-2022, 07:00 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundelway View Post
The grid is fine and can support more electric cars.

If you think mining minerals is problematic from a human rights perspective oh boy do you need to do some digging on oil and gas discovery and production in pretty much anywhere but here, Canada and the North Sea. Even if you do, itís a limited resource that does immense damage to this planet that can be easily mitigated.

There is no magical answer but there are plenty of alternatives that donít involve contributing to climate change more than we already are.

That whole thing felt like a Fox News induced rant uncle Larry would go off on at thanksgiving. Each and every point has a great counter argument based on science but it will get lost in the noise of opinion by people who are either unwilling or incapable of accepting that science and facts have no place for opinions or feelings.
I wasnít arguing for or against, simply stating common concerns or reasons people use. I think for every item listed someone could provide references in support or refuting them. And just like with Covid antivaxxers, by diminishing their concerns, the science and fact people just tell them they are stupid and brush aside their concerns. Now itís coming to light that many of those concerns were justified. So you could maybe see why there is a disconnect. And thatís why I mentioned those things.

Simply saying ďthe grid can handle more EVsĒ, while true, doesnít support the premise of banning all gas vehicles. Maybe the grid could support it, Iím no grid expert.

As far as modern slavery is concerned, Iím sure there is slavery everywhere you go, not just nail salons, massage parlors, or strip clubs. They are in the hard labor areas as well, probably oil too. I think the argument is that while you have these issues with oil, rare earth mining isnít any better. Is there a greater good going one way vs the other? I again am no expert, just reiterating why some people are against EVs.
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      12-21-2022, 02:14 PM   #35
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That thing will be getting 60 mpg easily.

Would rather get this than an overpriced EV.
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      12-30-2022, 11:15 AM   #36
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Really liking the way this looks, and the power bump is nice. I can't get behind the electric-only bandwagon for several reasons (park all my cars outside, can't structure my routine around visits to charging stations, range anxiety, yada ya) but if a test drive proves it isn't a total turd on the road, this may just be my next daily!
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      12-30-2022, 11:50 AM   #37
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Looks cool but could also be a relative thing as the older models were just awful looking. Maybe everyoneís expectations are low. 🤷
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      12-30-2022, 01:17 PM   #38
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Looks cool but could also be a relative thing as the older models were just awful looking. Maybe everyoneís expectations are low. 🤷
No it is just a well executed design, not just for a Prius. It looks better than most of BMW's new designs.
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      12-30-2022, 01:48 PM   #39
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No it is just a well executed design, not just for a Prius. It looks better than most of BMW's new designs.
Can't disagree with you on the comment about BMW, and yes, the Prius design is admittedly modern, stylish and cohesive.

I've posted before about BMW losing me with their styling, which is all over the place. The M3 has grown on me and I actually like the front end in certain colors. Although it would have been nice to have the rear fender flare to flow into the rear door a bit. Anyway, I agree with you that many of their designs are not well executed, especially the 2-series, 7-series and the XM.

It's actually a pretty interesting departure from the practice of a familial styling theme in that you might question whether they are all from the same company. Not sure if this, in particular, is a good or bad thing on its own. If the individual designs are not well executed, doesn't really matter.

Porsche I think is great at continually modernizing their designs while still sticking to an overall theme that is not only cohesive across most models, but also across generations. Audi does it well too, but in the case of Audi, I think their designs have gotten bland. The designs that really stand out in my opinion for Audi is the e-tron GT and the RS6 Avant. The Q8 looked great when it was introduced (and still does) but now all the their SUVs are starting to look like the Q8 and it's starting to feel dated. As is the TT, R8, A7, A6, A3 and others.

Anyways, totally went on a tangent here, sorry!
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      01-01-2023, 04:20 AM   #40
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Wonder if it will utilize the new engine block with direct and port injection.
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      01-01-2023, 10:47 AM   #41
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Lol I also am pumped on the new design and will consider replacing my Chevy Volt with one
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      01-01-2023, 03:02 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2C-NLUSA View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundelway View Post
Yeah but unlike a Tesla itís not made by people who clearly hate to make cars.

So many Teslas around here with so many issues and even the ones that are not frequently broken have panel gaps from 70s Chrysler products.

No thanks.

I cancelled an order on a model X years ago based on the advice of a neighbor. When I went to buy a Tesla charger later ( itís a good charger for a good price ) I discovered I was blacklisted by Tesla and had to have my wife order it.
Fuck you elon.

This is a Califrornia built car issue and is isolated to Fremont. The same issues do not occur with units From Shanghai or Berlin or even Austin.

Proof of blacklisting?
HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE CALIFORNIA OF BAD QUALITY


i mean ur right thoÖ
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      01-01-2023, 03:03 PM   #43
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Saw it at the San Diego Auto ShowÖ
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      01-01-2023, 03:11 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c1pher View Post
I think what Toyota has done is the best alternative. I still feel hybrid and plug in hybrid are the best options utilizing what each type of technology offer. You get the range and flexibility of gas, the efficiency and torque of EV. While apparently we will never run out of oil, we will definitely run out of EV materials, unless we discover a planet with unobtainium on it that we can exploit.
Toyotaís website:

ďPrius Prime alternates between electric and gas power. But with its larger battery pack, you can charge it up and drive more using only electricity. Plug it in at home, at work, or at any public charging station, and take advantage of its all-electric driving range. And if you canít plug it in, itís OK. Prius Prime will continue to run like an efficient hybrid.Ē

This speaks to me. The car looks good. 220hp is ďenoughĒ. They nailed it. Letís see if they make enough. This isnít a car that weíd want to see markups on.
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