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      01-17-2020, 03:08 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by nicky dj View Post
Did you read any of my arguments to understand my context or just judging by my single post?

Le me explain something to you, in performance and racing - track times and trap speed is ALL that matters. Or what's the point of the M2CS, the 39 more hp lol? If I was really a numbers only guy I would say something ignorant like "bro the M5 has 144 more horsepower than the M550i and a 0-69 in 3.1675 seconds, bro". ...and yes we know you're M5 slaloms better than the M550i through those curves on your way home from work.

Never did I once say the M550i is a superior car to the M5 or any of the cross platforms, or that it's meant to overachieve over the Flagship M's whatsoever. Logic dictates that the M5 can be tuned also to McLaren numbers. My entire argument is that the gap is bridged between the M550i / 340i compared to M's (let me add those lines for you too ///M), and that these are worthy cars of the M moniker and BMW GmbH no matter how butthurt //////M you are about it.
Why would I be butthurt.....when I have both cars 20 feet from me? GTFO.
Lol and what you just never drive the M550i and just the M5 for its vast superiority? A real moterwerks should be praising both platforms for its vast superiority over other manufacturers. GTFO.
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      01-17-2020, 03:14 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
To be fair, it's really Audi that started the ball with the dilution of the "S" designation.
Audi doesn't really say the 'S' model cars are part of the RS lineup, though.

Mercedes-AMG does say the C43 is fully part of the AMG family and that it is a REAL AMG.
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      01-17-2020, 03:29 AM   #333
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M for Motor Sport gradually turning into an M for Marketing, some may argue this is already fully in place.
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      01-17-2020, 03:31 AM   #334
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      01-17-2020, 03:33 AM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
To be fair, it's really Audi that started the ball with the dilution of the "S" designation.
Audi doesn't really say the 'S' model cars are part of the RS lineup, though.

Mercedes-AMG does say the C43 is fully part of the AMG family and that it is a REAL AMG.
The S variants debuted before the RS line. It was Audi's way to bump up much needed power. Audi did start the whole thing with the S-line trim package symbol you see on the fenders on a 2.0L turbo.

Totally agree with you on AMG, they did it right with their monikers. Really like the GLC43 SUV.
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      01-17-2020, 03:42 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by nicky dj View Post
The S variants debuted before the RS line. It was Audi's way to bump up much needed power. Audi did start the whole thing with the S-line trim package symbol you see on the fenders on a 2.0L turbo.

Totally agree with you on AMG, they did it right with their monikers. Really like the GLC43 SUV.
Oh, I know that Audi started it with the Sx cars. All I'm saying is that BMW like Mercedes is considering their entry level cars part of their respective performance brand family.

I also LOVE the AMG GLC 43.
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      01-17-2020, 04:20 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars View Post
I'm gonna stop you there because I've had both and there are 2 things to consider.

A new M340 is faster and more capable than my old E92 M3. Does that mean my M3 is no longer a real M car because it doesn't have true M Performance by modern standards? I'm sure you'll answer no.

So then what makes the M340 NOT an M car? It has real M Performance.

The new M3 will of course be even more solid and stable and fast, but you don't need it everyday. You might use 50% of the car's performance on your commute, and that's only for a few seconds at a time. At normal speeds, it feels like...a BMW. And if you're gonna use it like a normal BMW most of the time, why not get a normal BMW?
SoManyBlueCars I think you missed my entire point as you immediately mentioned speed.....An M car is so much more than straight line speed. If you really did own an M3, you should know that.

First of all, please tell me you realize you just compared a car that came out 12 YEARS AGO versus a brand new, less than 1 year old car (2 gens newer!) that barely performs on a similar playing field to its much older sibling? I'd bet the e92 m3 would still slightly edge the m340 around a track.

To your final point, why bother getting a m340 or heck, even a 330 when a 320 will feel like a BMW at normal commuting speeds? If you have the means to afford a true, proper M car, then why not if it makes you happy?

Wait until the new m3 is released. It's going to walk circles around the M340i in every way possible...
I really did own an M3, for 10 years, and even tracked it.

The M340 would walk the e92, since it's MUCH faster in a straight line and more than equal with its cornering grip. I'm well aware of the M mantra of overall capability, but that's what the M340 has.

Lets look at the M550 vs M5:
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2018...-m550i-xdrive/

"25 percent price increase for maybe 17 percent more performance"

I get that the M5 is a better car, with more road "feel", but the M550 has the Performance of the previous F10 generation. The article says the 550 feels great. I'm just wondering why the 550 isn't an M car since it has M performance.

I say this often for people who use "because track" as a reason, but Modern M cars are heavy and big. Even that E92, while excellent at the limit and forgiving, was heavy to push around all day. You can feel the weight in the corners. Why are you tracking a car with full back seats and leather etc on a consistent basis?

So, if you have the finances for just one car that you need to use every day and track often, get the M3. I'll be a half second behind you having just as much fun.
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      01-17-2020, 04:35 AM   #338
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So the take away for me is that all these "///M" performance cars now officially belong here


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      01-17-2020, 04:35 AM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
You know, beside other brands, I am a long time owner as well but your comment which wants to pose in a subjective posture, is actually a very poor mask of your true opinion.
While I agree with you in some points, you are literally putting under a question mark all your intentions by perpetually hitting the M owners with that "insecurity", while all your posts are just a narcissistic way of reassuring yourself about how smart and clever you are by choosing vehicles that are not M but which are " a hair apart from an M vehicle".

I do own a simple X line vehicle, and looking for my next M, yet I will never put them together, because they are not.
yeah, preach your poetry as long as you want but you:
- either lack knowledge in the field,
- either your senses are dead
- either you are just in here to reiterate to yourself what a good decision you have made.

Same goes for TV's or Audio field where many look the same, yet a deaf or a blind guy can not see the difference. Many swear on their "blue faces" (to use your words), that their speakers are absolutely better than some very expensive ones where beryllium is used, and can not justify the price.
Fair enough, but stop preaching in here your poor perception. If you are unable to see what people that are specialists in the field can see, that doesn';t mean that you are correct.

Also, if BMW calls the X3M and X5M or X6M an M vehicle who are you to say that they are not?
Do you have the definition of M? Or did you read somewhere that M is actually a certain class of its own where the center of gravity must not go over a certain height from the ground level?
If you don't see the X5M or X6M as an M car that is your problem, but they are as they do benefit from certain materials, technical approach, different engineering, track inspired technology and more power. Don't care about your opinion about soccer mom's with 600HP! is immature and shows your condescending approach! That is nobody's business and can not be included in an enthusiast forum.
It is just a different vehicle for different purposes. An M3 will not take me skiing or hiking where I want -and where I am usually going- with the speed and comfort I am looking for, but an X6 will. Is just a bigger different animal, but if you have a bigger imagination and see that X6 from the helicopter in the field, you will get its purpose. So is the Ford Raptor which will not stay beside the M3. But the M3 will not stay beside that Raptor either. Depends on the situation.

In the end, stop blaming the M owners, that they are hurt. From where I am sitting, it seems that actually you are the one that is hurt, not them as they have no reason to.
Actually, people like you are the ones that are promoting disdain inside the brand. Be happy with what you have and enjoy, but stop trying to preach in here the so little differences between BMW models. They are very different and the prices obviously reflect that and people that do have some real weight in the field say the same.
The new M340 is a beast on its own reported to the actual cars, but the new M3 will be far apart. It's called evolution. Is true that many are not using the limits of a normal BMW and I passed many cool cars with my 4 cyl but that doesn't mean that mine is better. Some buy their M's for their technical specifications, some buy it for their image or just because they want the best. Each of us have its own perception, but a perception will not replace the facts.
The only one that would take offense to my comments is someone insecure. i am an m owner for many many years, just honest and not a fanboi.

By your same argument you’ve proved my point, bmw says the MPs are part of the M line up just like those wanna be m trucks so it must be so.

Enjoy those 600ponies driving up the mountain to ski in m wonderland

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      01-17-2020, 05:01 AM   #340
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I have to say, wife has an X2 2.0D XDrive.

Despite the ridicule here, great car for the money once we had discount.

BUT the X2M235i "is a real M car' is a statement I could never agree with!

That's a terrible M car but a nice performance model.
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      01-17-2020, 05:13 AM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
Audi doesn't really say the 'S' model cars are part of the RS lineup, though.

Mercedes-AMG does say the C43 is fully part of the AMG family and that it is a REAL AMG.
There was a time where the S-lineup was the equivalent of today's RS-lineup. Back then, the S4 was a diect competitor to the M3 in terms of price and performance. The B6 S4 even won quite a few comparison tests against the E46 M3 when it was introduced. In those days, there was different engine options for the base series and then there was the top S/M/AMG lineup. Eventually, Audi was the first to make the S-series the top engine of the base car and introduced the RS as the top tier. BMW and Mercedes did exactly the same thing with the M and AMG badging.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...parison-tests/
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      01-17-2020, 05:16 AM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars View Post
I really did own an M3, for 10 years, and even tracked it.

The M340 would walk the e92, since it's MUCH faster in a straight line and more than equal with its cornering grip. I'm well aware of the M mantra of overall capability, but that's what the M340 has.

Lets look at the M550 vs M5:
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2018...-m550i-xdrive/

"25 percent price increase for maybe 17 percent more performance"

I get that the M5 is a better car, with more road "feel", but the M550 has the Performance of the previous F10 generation. The article says the 550 feels great. I'm just wondering why the 550 isn't an M car since it has M performance.

I say this often for people who use "because track" as a reason, but Modern M cars are heavy and big. Even that E92, while excellent at the limit and forgiving, was heavy to push around all day. You can feel the weight in the corners. Why are you tracking a car with full back seats and leather etc on a consistent basis?

So, if you have the finances for just one car that you need to use every day and track often, get the M3. I'll be a half second behind you having just as much fun.
You're comparing cars 2 generations apart

The E46 328 "walked" the E30 M3 when it got launched in 1998. It's always been like that, it's called progress.
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      01-17-2020, 05:54 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars View Post
I really did own an M3, for 10 years, and even tracked it.

The M340 would walk the e92, since it's MUCH faster in a straight line and more than equal with its cornering grip. I'm well aware of the M mantra of overall capability, but that's what the M340 has.

Lets look at the M550 vs M5:
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2018...-m550i-xdrive/

"25 percent price increase for maybe 17 percent more performance"

I get that the M5 is a better car, with more road "feel", but the M550 has the Performance of the previous F10 generation. The article says the 550 feels great. I'm just wondering why the 550 isn't an M car since it has M performance.

I say this often for people who use "because track" as a reason, but Modern M cars are heavy and big. Even that E92, while excellent at the limit and forgiving, was heavy to push around all day. You can feel the weight in the corners. Why are you tracking a car with full back seats and leather etc on a consistent basis?

So, if you have the finances for just one car that you need to use every day and track often, get the M3. I'll be a half second behind you having just as much fun.
You're comparing cars 2 generations apart

The E46 328 "walked" the E30 M3 when it got launched in 1998. It's always been like that, it's called progress.
They didn't market a 328 as an M car. An M340i is.
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      01-17-2020, 05:58 AM   #344
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The only cars I would buy from BMW would be CSL. M brand completely devalued and can't think of anything BMW currently make that in 20 years time will be regarded as a true masterpiece of engineering
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      01-17-2020, 06:06 AM   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr24 View Post
Why would I be butthurt.....when I have both cars 20 feet from me? GTFO.
The M performance cars are not a real M car......END. OF. STORY. M cars are not all about speed.......and if I were to pull up next to a M340 or M550, I'll never say "yay, there is another M car." Ever.
The M550i is just that.....a 550i at the end of the day. Better than a 540....better than a 530.....but most definitely not a M5, either.

The M550 is a great car....but I've driven it twice since I got my M5. It's apples and oranges.

Someone earlier mentioned this whoring out was similar to what Benz has done with the AMG models. I don't like comparing the M Performance cars versus the cheap-ass AMG models (again, not talking about C63, S63, E63, etc....but models like the E43 or whatever it's called). Those lower AMG models are SLOW....the M Performance cars at least have an actual power upgrade more worthy of the name. There, you are paying for the AMG name even though the car really has zero upgrades over the other models.

Bottom line is there is more to the M name than power nowadays. Maybe it didn't always use to be that way but handling and suspension are major differences. The comfort mode (I am talking about handling and suspension, not power) in my M5 is way way way more aggressive/firmer/tighter than even the sport plus in my M550.
"There, you are paying for the AMG name even though the car really has zero upgrades over the other models." Really? Zero upgrades? The cheap A 220 makes 181 hp, the A 35 makes 302 hp. Also the A 35 comes with 4 matic and a different suspension and settings. The list goes on regarding the differences. I'm not saying the A 35 is all the special but saying it has "zero upgrades" is completely false.
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      01-17-2020, 06:08 AM   #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars View Post
They didn't market a 328 as an M car. An M340i is.
You said it: “market”.

That’s all this is: Marketing
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      01-17-2020, 06:13 AM   #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicky dj View Post
Did you read any of my arguments to understand my context or just judging by my single post?

Le me explain something to you, in performance and racing - track times and trap speed is ALL that matters. Or what's the point of the M2CS, the 39 more hp lol? If I was really a numbers only guy I would say something ignorant like "bro the M5 has 144 more horsepower than the M550i and a 0-69 in 3.1675 seconds, bro". ...and yes we know you're M5 slaloms better than the M550i through those curves on your way home from work.

Never did I once say the M550i is a superior car to the M5 or any of the cross platforms, or that it's meant to overachieve over the Flagship M's whatsoever. Logic dictates that the M5 can be tuned also to McLaren numbers. My entire argument is that the gap is bridged between the M550i / 340i compared to M's (let me add those lines for you too ///M), and that these are worthy cars of the M moniker and BMW GmbH no matter how butthurt //////M you are about it.
By your logic then E92 335i is also M car because it definitely can be tuned to embarrass E92 M3. Even stock there was not huge gap in performance #s especially with the much more potent down low torque of the turbo 335.
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      01-17-2020, 06:17 AM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6ixSpd View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kavo11 View Post
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Originally Posted by topgear67 View Post
The reason people are bitching about M Performance cars is because M owners got to pay an extra $30K to get 0.5 sec faster car on a 0-60...

And we get an xDrive as a bonus so we are using them year round...lol

Yes, this is a Dakar Yellow 435i M Performance (now an M435i) Dinan stage 2, manual gear box, xDrive and very proud of it.
It's not just about speed, that's only a small slice of the pie to consider....Its the drastically improved road feel, steering feel/response, tighter chassis, improved brakes, engine etc.

Being a finance guy, I tried so hard to convince myself that a 335i/435i/M340i etc was close enough to a true M car so I could save the money. After many extensive test drives though, I understood why the true M cars are so special and worth that price difference if its within your means. Your 435i is pretty and I'm sure is quite quick in a straight line, but please don't go around telling people it's an M car. It's not even an M435i, there was simply no such thing in 2015. That's like a 335i owner saying he now has an M335i because BMW is currently producing the M340i...
Don't bother reasoning with these people lol. Let them slurp their ///Marketting Kool-Aid.

Anyone who buys a "M-Performance" whatever was never the intended buyer of a full M car in the first place. They're simply cut from a different cloth. Like comparing Nike ACG joggers to a pair of fitted slacks.

"M-Performance" vehicles are glorified grocery getters and commuters with a sprinkling of fun. Full blown M cars are (rather, were) built for fun as a priority, and the utilitarianism came second.
Arrogance much?
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      01-17-2020, 06:32 AM   #349
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Just debadge.
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      01-17-2020, 06:55 AM   #350
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I really think people are taking this off track. The argument is not if M cars are better than M performance cars. I am sure M performance cars are more than capable for most. Some (most) people just don't care about absolute performance.

Argument is if the M performance cars are M cars and they are Not!
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      01-17-2020, 07:01 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Drv4fun View Post
To me: if it has an M it *should* have a factory (mechanical) LSD. If you need to ask what is an LSD is then you shouldn't be looking at an M.

But BMW has become a whore and will wear whatever lingerie to get your money..
Yes, BMW is a large, publicly traded, for profit corporation just like Daimler, VW, GM etc. It might be beneficial to venture out of Mr Rogers' neighborhood on occasion.
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      01-17-2020, 07:06 AM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
While I don't 100% agree with the decision, I can't say that I am in the slightest surprised by this, I saw it coming from a mile a way, it was inevitable, especially being that BMW is all about the ///Money.
Really! Gosh darn! For all this time I thought BMW, a publicly traded FOR PROFIT corporation, just wanted to make me happy by selling me fun cars. Thank you for opening my eyes to the dark truth.
Appreciate 1
530iDriver1554.50

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