No more Chargers or Challengers?

[WolfGTI]

I think worse than Mustang drivers are Motards.

Modern Mopar, for when your horsepower exceeds your credit score.

Originally Posted by G MONEY

Ok. I will say it. Who the fuck cares? Lol. 2nd worse cars on the road after Mustangs����

[chris719]

Originally Posted by RM7

That's a similar problem as compared to my Camaro. In SS, SS1LE, ZL1, ZL1-1LE, it's an absolute monster. The chassis is excellent with handling, feedback, dynamics, steering, etc. It punches way above it's weight and is fun to drive. But, there are drawbacks, getting in and out, people who don't want to adapt to the high belt lines or set the mirrors correctly, those that feel they need to see the hood, etc. None of these are deal-breakers for most enthusiasts looking for the performance it offers and somehow I don't hit cones during AutoX, but it also means that the V6 and I-4 models don't offer any real compelling reason to buy relative to the disadvantages. Those buyers typically aren't looking to maximize performance, they want a little sporty in all areas.

You're right that it's very similar. I always felt like the difference was the Camaro had the performance and competent chassis whereas the Charger/Challenger didn't really.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Rono63

It's looking more and more like the manufacturers are going to skip the hybrid version of models and go straight to EVs.

Next gen Mustang is keeping the 5.0 V8 and will get a hybrid option.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Uhhhh, guys they aren't going straight to EV.

They just dumped a ton of money into a turbo I-6 platform that will available in two different performance levels for a variety of applications.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

The way to go is to NOT disregard 146 years of engineering, but to supplement it with electric motor packs that can be installed in ANY car.

Same with self-driving vehicles. There is no need to make such a thing, but there IS a need to make aftermarket installable systems that will allow any car to be self-driving (starting with the Interstate).

Everything should happen in phases, it's the way everything works best.

They spoiled everyone with 707hp this and 797hp that. You can’t compete with that with a downsized engine with hybrid tech, at least not for the average consumer with a warranty.

They’re going to make a new hellcat with 900hp out of a hybrid 6cyl? No way. Plus their fanbase would disapprove that just as much as EV.

The only way to compete is to go electric. The Tesla plaid has ruined it for everyone. That became the gold standard in straight line acceleration. Something these high performance FCA cars are known for.

They can’t compete until they go electric.

[BIGW0RM]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Uhhhh, guys they aren't going straight to EV.

They just dumped a ton of money into a turbo I-6 platform that will available in two different performance levels for a variety of applications.

Articles are saying the muscle cars (they call them EMuscle cars) are going full EV.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

They spoiled everyone with 707hp this and 797hp that. You can’t compete with that with a downsized engine with hybrid tech, at least not for the average consumer with a warranty.

They’re going to make a new hellcat with 900hp out of a hybrid 6cyl? No way. Plus their fanbase would disapprove that just as much as EV.

The only way to compete is to go electric. The Tesla plaid has ruined it for everyone. That became the gold standard in straight line acceleration. Something these high performance FCA cars are known for.

They can’t compete until they go electric.

I'm not talking about Dodge, forget them, people in the US worship the past anyway, they can't wait to go down to the local bar and brag that they have the last one. I'm talking about the industry as a whole.

[RM7]

Thing is, this subset of people only really cares about going in a straight line as fast as possible. They will be well served by EVs.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

They spoiled everyone with 707hp this and 797hp that. You can’t compete with that with a downsized engine with hybrid tech, at least not for the average consumer with a warranty.

They’re going to make a new hellcat with 900hp out of a hybrid 6cyl? No way. Plus their fanbase would disapprove that just as much as EV.

First up is the W206 C63 w/ hybrid 4-banger.

Lets see in AMG customers that are use to V8's will buy them or move to something else.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by M3WC

First up is the W206 C63 w/ hybrid 4-banger.

Lets see in AMG customers that are use to V8's will buy them or move to something else.

Different power levels.

Dodge can not and will not use their hybrid 6cyl to exceed what they did with the hellcat name.

They will most likely have a lighter construction and come close to it with power.

Or just go EV. Which is more likely.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Different power levels.

Dodge can not and will not use their hybrid 6cyl to exceed what they did with the hellcat name.

They will most likely have a lighter construction and come close to it with power.

Or just go EV. Which is more likely.

I'm don't even care about hp levels. AMG move is more related to sound.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by M3WC

I'm don't even care about hp levels. AMG move is more related to sound.

It has everything to do with hp levels.

Imagine having a G80 that made less power than the F80. Would you buy it?

Imagine if GM brought out the C8Z with less power than the C7Z? Even though the torque figure is lower, people look at horsepower. Horsepower is what sells cars.

The C63 is a good example of MB being successful with the hybrid 4 because the previous gen C63 didn't have much power to begin with so to speak.

Most people are going with EV (aside from politics) is because you can now integrate so much self driving and other safety technology inside that DNA.

[Humdizzle]

people are forgetting that enthusiasts are a small subset of buyers.

most guys are buying sports cars to show off and push the loud pedal for a few seconds in a straight line. i'd prefer a f80 with an s65 v8 rather than a turbo 6. but that wouldnt sell

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Imagine having a G80 that made less power than the F80. Would you buy it?

100% yes. If it was attractive, lighter, nice exhaust note, had dct. BMW was never about HP. It was about the total package and pure driving dynamics. Now, not so much...they went chasing paper stats.

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Imagine if GM brought out the C8Z with less power than the C7Z? Even though the torque figure is lower, people look at horsepower. Horsepower is what sells cars.

If GM would have focused on lightweight materials, offering a manual, with a lower hp high revving V8. I'd be all in.

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

The C63 is a good example of MB being successful with the hybrid 4 because the previous gen C63 didn't have much power to begin with so to speak.

500+ hp M177 is one hell of an engine, plenty of power. New 4-banger hybrid is going to sound like a CLA45.

Next gen Mustang is maintaining the 5.0 V8 and is reportedly losing 10hp/10tq due to emissions. It is still a win being able to get the V8. Everything isn't about HP.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

people are forgetting that enthusiasts are a small subset of buyers.

most guys are buying sports cars to show off and push the loud pedal for a few seconds in a straight line. i'd prefer a f80 with an s65 v8 rather than a turbo 6. but that wouldnt sell

I don't know, BMW has sold lots of cars with turbo in-line sixes. It was usually rated one of the top 10 engines you could buy. I LOVED my n55.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by M3WC

100% yes. If it was attractive, lighter, nice exhaust note, had dct. BMW was never about HP. It was about the total package and pure driving dynamics. Now, not so much...they went chasing paper stats.

Right. But have they ever tried this formula in an M car? Every generation M cars become more powerful. That's just how it is.

If GM would have focused on lightweight materials, offering a manual, with a lower hp high revving V8. I'd be all in.

Understandable. But you would be in a group that would be in the 0.0000001% range. You don't put a manual trans in something like a C8, especially not a z06. Those days are done. You don't handicap the car just because of very very very small group of enthusiasts want to shift their own gears. This is a car that is at a very high level of performance. This isn't an MKV supra.

500+ hp M177 is one hell of an engine, plenty of power. New 4-banger hybrid is going to sound like a CLA45.

Next gen Mustang is maintaining the 5.0 V8 and is reportedly losing 10hp/10tq due to emissions. It is still a win being able to get the V8. Everything isn't about HP.

I am not doubting it's capabilities. I was pointing out that with the C63, it didn't have massive amounts of power where a hybrid 4cyl couldn't reach or exceed. I was commenting on how dodge wouldn't be able to do that because they set the bar so high with the hellcat lineup that not even smaller hybrid engines would be able to exceed (for the average consumer with a warranty).

I agree the mustang is a win because it still has a v8. I'm saying if it has a hybrid system as per the rumors, that will be an upgrade to the NA 5.0 V8, even if the HP level remains the same. Gearing, power delivery makes a world of a difference.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Dodge just unveiled the concept banshee SRT challenger looking thing?

And it's an EV.

Dodge promised this would exceed the performance of the ICE hellcats. Just as i said. This was the only way.

Is to go EV.

[patroklai]

Originally Posted by RM7

That's a similar problem as compared to my Camaro. In SS, SS1LE, ZL1, ZL1-1LE, it's an absolute monster. The chassis is excellent with handling, feedback, dynamics, steering, etc. It punches way above it's weight and is fun to drive. But, there are drawbacks, getting in and out, people who don't want to adapt to the high belt lines or set the mirrors correctly, those that feel they need to see the hood, etc. None of these are deal-breakers for most enthusiasts looking for the performance it offers and somehow I don't hit cones during AutoX, but it also means that the V6 and I-4 models don't offer any real compelling reason to buy relative to the disadvantages. Those buyers typically aren't looking to maximize performance, they want a little sporty in all areas.

Ditto. Camaro SS here. The one thing I never got right was the suspension. I'm on my 4th setup with full BMR bushings, control arms sway bars, etc etc. I like it but it's no M3.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Dodge just unveiled the concept banshee SRT challenger looking thing?

And it's an EV.

Dodge promised this would exceed the performance of the ICE hellcats. Just as i said. This was the only way.

Is to go EV.

If you want a 5,000+ lbs behemoth.

[rbryantaz]

Originally Posted by nerdogray

Now if they can only do something about the ones already on the road.

The cars or the owners of them?

[chris719]

Originally Posted by M3WC

If you want a 5,000+ lbs behemoth.

A Hellcat is already about 4500 lbs. A Model S Plaid is 4700-4800 lbs. Massive difference.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by chris719

A Hellcat is already about 4500 lbs. A Model S Plaid is 4700-4800 lbs. Massive difference.

That's only one one american adult-weight tho.