Why should student loan debt be cancelled?

[JMcLellan]

I still have student loans I'm paying on from the last program I completed in 2015. I took advantage of the pandemic and stopped making payments since zero interest was accruing but will start back up in September. I've been enjoying that money making interest for me in a savings account. Even if I wanted to make a payment right now I don't even know who my loan administrator is and where to make a payment. I have spent a couple hours this week trying to figure it out to prep for repayments starting soon. Aside from the loan forgiveness topic (which is ridiculous) if someone wanted to pay right now they make it impossible to do so....

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by 50shadesofhockenheim

What hasn't gone up at least 180% in the last 40 years?

everything in that article seems wildly incorrect... 4 years of college, room and board at $28k today lol? I live in FL - one of the cheapest states for education and that is grossly understated. UF tuition alone is 7K a year for in state students with no books... i dont know who wrote that article.

[Anderson11]

Like our porous border attracting illegals because "everything is free in America" student loan forgiveness IMO was added to get votes. If you borrow money pay it back whether is was a good decision or a dumb ass decision to borrow it in the 1st place. Lack of personal responsibility is now the tax payers problem.....

[Alfisti]

Loans should not be forgiven but just like your health care system, it absolutely does my head in how the US has managed to just utterly butcher education. Universities are so bloated, there's no way in the world it should cost 60K a year (what a work colleague is paying to send his kid to Marist College) to get a basic uni education. It's just mind bending how this was ever allowed to happen, for comparison a basic undergrad degree is about $5K year in Australia and I still think that is too much. You guys are just insane down there.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Loans should not be forgiven but just like your health care system, it absolutely does my head in how the US has managed to just utterly butcher education. Universities are so bloated, there's no way in the world it should cost 60K a year (what a work colleague is paying to send his kid to Marist College) to get a basic uni education. It's just mind bending how this was ever allowed to happen, for comparison a basic undergrad degree is about $5K year in Australia and I still think that is too much. You guys are just insane down there.

Yeah but it's totally worth it for a sweet ass degree in unicorn societal studies.

[LivingInSalt]

Originally Posted by NikMN

That is true bit why should I "pay" for someone else is poor choice?

because you care more about people than profit or corporations

[LivingInSalt]

Originally Posted by Anderson11

Lack of personal responsibility is now the tax payers problem.....

Just like lack of corporate responsibility has been the tax payers problem too right?

[LivingInSalt]

Originally Posted by 50shadesofhockenheim

What hasn't gone up at least 180% in the last 40 years?

good question. the answer is wages.


https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/imag...1910&ffmt=webp

[50shadesofhockenheim]

Originally Posted by LivingInSalt

wages

Us median income in 1980 $17,709
And in 2020 $67,521

[LivingInSalt]

Originally Posted by 50shadesofhockenheim

Us median income in 1980 $17,709
And in 2020 $67,521

these are inflation adjusted numbers

https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/imag...1910&ffmt=webp

[50shadesofhockenheim]

Originally Posted by LivingInSalt

good question. the answer is wages.


https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106968880-1635799559954-College_costs_vs_Earnings.jpg?v=1635799656&w=1910& ffmt=webp

Ages 22-27. Nice way for them to manipulate the graph to make it look so low. You don’t start making money right out of college. Takes 5+ to get experience

[LivingInSalt]

Originally Posted by 50shadesofhockenheim

Ages 22-27. Nice way for them to manipulate the graph to make it look so low. You don’t start making money right out of college. Takes 5+ to get experience

But a 22-27yo could pay for college with their low wages back then, because the cost of college hadn't exploded

i had friends that paid their entire way through college working at Chili's.

try that now

[Samurai of 2day]

All US Military branches offer Student Loan Repayment Programs and Tuition Assistance. Even the reserve components

If citizens want higher education but can't afford it, have 'em sign up, serve a few years to earn the aforementioned benefits and learn some personal discipline, self accountability, understand how contribution to greater cause works, and gain a sense of personal responsibility.

Productivity, all around.

[GTF]

Nothing is "cancelled", debt is simply transferred to the taxpayer to buy votes. Fairness has no place in this scheme.....only more corruption from an incompetent administration. I currently live in a state where corruption is an art.

[wtwo3]

There's a bit of contradiction between people saying student loans shouldn't be forgiven, but the cost of higher education should be brought under control. No matter what you do, someone gets screwed, and you can't fix things for everybody.

If you bring the cost of education down for future generations, what about the previous generations who had to pay egregious costs - is literally the same logic as the argument people are making about "well if student loans are forgiven then people who had to pay their own way through school should also be compensated".

Reality is, life isn't fair. You try and make it better going forward through progress, whatever that cost might be. What we SHOULD be doing is evaluating what's best for the economy (and as an extension, the people) going forward - not what's the most "fair". Sometimes what's most fair isn't what's best.

I'm not specifically for or against student loan forgiveness, and I think having a hardline view one way or another is very near sighted. I'm for what needs to be done to ensure we don't spiral into a deep economic crisis. People can bitch and moan about large banks getting bailouts, but at the end of the day what was the alternative? Let them fail and send the economy into freefall? Likewise, if student loan forgiveness is what's best for us all going forward, then I'm all for it - even if that means some people's feelings get hurt. That's irrespective of the need for better awareness behind financial accountability - I think that's a given to minimize future screw ups.

Ideally everyone would make enough money to pay off their student loans without causing strain on their financial situation or preventing them from following desired paths in life. The reality isn't quite so rosy - and it's wrapped up in decades of misinformation, lack of knowledge, accountability, and downright deceit. We can always aim for the ideal and put practices in place to help get us there, but we need to be able to deal with reality without saying, "tough luck you did this to yourself".

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by LivingInSalt

But a 22-27yo could pay for college with their low wages back then, because the cost of college hadn't exploded

i had friends that paid their entire way through college working at Chili's.

try that now

Palm Beach State College tuition for in state students is $101 per credit hour plus books (before aid). My wife went there to become a paralegal. Kaiser (for profit) university was trying to get there to go there for around 4x the cost (which now looks like it might be up to 5-6x the cost today).

Paying your way or managing loan borrowings can still be done if you want to make it happen and are smart with where you go. Having good grades and getting scholarships and grants has always been the best way to finance higher education. Those unable to see how they will pay for tuition upfront or by repaying loans should really consider whether it makes sense to take on 6-figure loans to earn a modest 5-figure salary in a field with limited wage growth.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

There's a bit of contradiction between people saying student loans shouldn't be forgiven, but the cost of higher education should be brought under control. No matter what you do, someone gets screwed, and you can't fix things for everybody.

If you bring the cost of education down for future generations, what about the previous generations who had to pay egregious costs - is literally the same logic as the argument people are making about "well if student loans are forgiven then people who had to pay their own way through school should also be compensated".

Reality is, life isn't fair. You try and make it better going forward through progress, whatever that cost might be. What we SHOULD be doing is evaluating what's best for the economy (and as an extension, the people) going forward - not what's the most "fair". Sometimes what's most fair isn't what's best.

I'm not specifically for or against student loan forgiveness, and I think having a hardline view one way or another is very near sighted. I'm for what needs to be done to ensure we don't spiral into a deep economic crisis. People can bitch and moan about large banks getting bailouts, but at the end of the day what was the alternative? Let them fail and send the economy into freefall? Likewise, if student loan forgiveness is what's best for us all going forward, then I'm all for it - even if that means some people's feelings get hurt. That's irrespective of the need for better awareness behind financial accountability - I think that's a given to minimize future screw ups.

Ideally everyone would make enough money to pay off their student loans without causing strain on their financial situation or preventing them from following desired paths in life. The reality isn't quite so rosy - and it's wrapped up in decades of misinformation, lack of knowledge, accountability, and downright deceit. We can always aim for the ideal and put practices in place to help get us there, but we need to be able to deal with reality without saying, "tough luck you did this to yourself".

in a "true" capitalist environment... failure is a basic tenet... in fact that's how the theory was written... if banks and corporations fail... it may hurt everyone but it brings up a fresh and fair restart for everyone...

what we have ended up with is someone always benefiting off of someone else's money thru taxpayer subsidy's.... PPP loans, bailouts whatever you want to call it... every single time this ends with an unfair transfer of wealth... so in that instance, people who are paying record prices for student loans do have a right to complain... a right to forgiveness no... but then why forgive anything?

this also comes back to mergers and acquisitions... in a "true" capitalist environment those would be blocked to allow max competition... we don't do that...we consolidate and further consolidate wealth

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

in a "true" capitalist environment... failure is a basic tenet... in fact that's how the theory was written... if banks and corporations fail... it may hurt everyone but it brings up a fresh and fair restart for everyone...

what we have ended up with is someone always benefiting off of someone else's money thru taxpayer subsidy's.... PPP loans, bailouts whatever you want to call it... every single time this ends with an unfair transfer of wealth... so in that instance, people who are paying record prices for student loans do have a right to complain... a right to forgiveness no... but then why forgive anything?

this also comes back to mergers and acquisitions... in a "true" capitalist environment those would be blocked to allow max competition... we don't do that...we consolidate and further consolidate wealth

Agreed - but I guess my point is to have some flexibility within the system to address problems without having a hardline view on what "should" happen based on a specific economic ideology. I'm all for accountability and people not getting free handouts... but it's hard to say "we'll just leave that up to capitalism to sort out over time" when you're talking about people's livelihood - in some cases generations.

In my view - if forgiving student loans (in addition to reforming higher education and instilling better awareness/knowledge) is what is best for people as a whole, I'm all for it. On the other end, if doing so will be detrimental, then I'm against it.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Agreed - but I guess my point is to have some flexibility within the system to address problems without having a hardline view on what "should" happen based on a specific economic ideology. I'm all for accountability and people not getting free handouts... but it's hard to say "we'll just leave that up to capitalism to sort out over time" when you're talking about people's livelihood - in some cases generations.

In my view - if forgiving student loans (in addition to reforming higher education and instilling better awareness/knowledge) is what is best for people as a whole, I'm all for it. On the other end, if doing so will be detrimental, then I'm against it.

I feel like this lack of a hardline stance is exactly how we ended up here... no one said a university shouldn't be a profit center but instead should be a govt back education institution... so what we've ended up with is what I like to call Convenient Capitalism that is the right decision at the time.

This has ended up with massive costs being passed on, asset inflation and virtually minimal wage growth for most people. I predict that in 30 years if school costs, housing costs, education costs vs wages dont' come under control... expect an India type situation - you are either born into wealth or you aren't and are forever and indebted renter trying to make it for some laughable wages.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I feel like this lack of a hardline stance is exactly how we ended up here... no one said a university shouldn't be a profit center but instead should be a govt back education institution... so what we've ended up with is what I like to call Convenient Capitalism that is the right decision at the time.

This has ended up with massive costs being passed on, asset inflation and virtually minimal wage growth for most people. I predict that in 30 years if school costs, housing costs, education costs vs wages dont' come under control... expect an India type situation - you are either born into wealth or you aren't and are forever and indebted renter trying to make it for some laughable wages.

I don't think that has much to do with lack of a hardline stance... that's just lack of regulation in the midst of misinformation, lack of knowledge, lack of accountability, and general deceit. Those are two different things.

"Convenient capitalism" is the reality when you're dealing with people's livelihoods. But it's possible to continue to do that while still ensuring you instill knowledge and awareness and accountability for future progress and improvement. I guess I'm in the middle. People need to learn a lesson and need to be held accountable, but in a way that's least painful to everyone as a whole. If not forgiving student loans sends the economy spiraling, that hurts us all, even those of us who have been responsible and accountable. On the other hand if forgiving student loans sets us up for economic disaster, then I'm against it. I'm not an economist so I can't really comment on what the best approach is. But what I am for is evaluating what the implications of each scenario are, irrespective of "feelings".

[50shadesofhockenheim]

Originally Posted by LivingInSalt

But a 22-27yo could pay for college with their low wages back then, because the cost of college hadn't exploded

i had friends that paid their entire way through college working at Chili's.

try that now

The University I went to is currently $203 per credit for in-state. A full schedule is 15 credits (5 classes @ 3 credits each). So that's $3k per semester plus books so lets say $4k.. And a semester is around 4 months long so don't tell me you can't make enough money working on the side to pay that off. Not to mention, in Florida if you have a 3.0+ GPA in high school you qualify for Bright Futures scholarship which pays at least 50% of your tuition. The local moes (burrito place) across the street from the university starts at $17 an hour, I don't wanna hear that it's not possible to go to school and pay the tuition at the same time. The issue is all these kids wanting the "college experience" and going away to schools which ends up increasing the cost of living + they party and don't work. If you need to travel/go out of state to attend a school, it better result in a degree that's worth the investment. No one is accountable for their actions nowadays and laziness is a huge issue as well.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I don't think that has much to do with lack of a hardline stance... that's just lack of regulation in the midst of misinformation, lack of knowledge, lack of accountability, and general deceit. Those are two different things.

"Convenient capitalism" is the reality when you're dealing with people's livelihoods. But it's possible to continue to do that while still ensuring you instill knowledge and awareness and accountability for future progress and improvement. I guess I'm in the middle. People need to learn a lesson and need to be held accountable, but in a way that's least painful to everyone as a whole. If not forgiving student loans sends the economy spiraling, that hurts us all, even those of us who have been responsible and accountable. On the other hand if forgiving student loans sets us up for economic disaster, then I'm against it. I'm not an economist so I can't really comment on what the best approach is. But what I am for is evaluating what the implications of each scenario are, irrespective of "feelings".

Right... but then do you have a complaint for the companies that took PPP loans that were forgiven and are now making record profits / margins just 2 years later? We all paid for that... and are NOW paying for in arrears in the form of inflation and will continue to do so for years... do you think this is for the betterment of society? Who is learning the lesson here? Sounds like all us for not being too bright and buying into the nonsense.