Navy thread

[Llarry]

I haven't kept up very well with the Republic of Korea (South Korean) Navy in recent years. They have come a long way in submarines from the 1990s, when they bought 9 Diesel-electric attack submarines of a type 209 design by German builder HDW. The first boat was built in Germany, but the remainder were Korean built. Korea is a shipbuilding powerhouse and that got them started. The goal is a force of 27 submarines.

The next step was another 9 submarines of HDW type 214 built in Korea and delivered in 2006-2020. These are considerably larger and have fuel cells for extended underwater operation without the need to snorkel to recharge batteries.

The final class of boats in the current ROKN program is the KSS-III type submarine designed and built domestically and entering service starting in 2021. Again, 9 boats are planned and 4 are already in service. While still relying on Diesel-electric propulsion with air-independent fuel cell power for extended underwater operations, the traditional lead-acid batteries have been replaced by Lithium-ion in the 4th and subsequent boats. The KSS-III submarines also feature vertical launch tubes for land attack missiles.

There has been some interest in buying Korean submarines by other countries. Both Canada and the Philippines have shown interest. (If the Philippines does buy a couple of submarines, they would be the first operated by that nation.)

[Llarry]

The mission for the Chinese Navy's new 40,000-ton amphibious assault carrier is now a bit easier to speculate about. It may have a considerable airborne attack role as well as carrying troops and helicopters.

The Sichuan (LHD 51) has undergone preliminary sea trials, but I've not yet seen photos of aircraft operations from this large carrier.

The special characteristic of this type 076 LHD is that it has a single catapult and arresting gear. These are probably meant to be used by drones. The Sichuan could combine an air attack drone mission with a troop-carrying mission.

See the attached speculative deck load with GJ-11 stealth attack drones along with Z-20 helicopters in both anti-submarine and troop-carrying form.

The GJ-11 is fairly large: 47-foot span and 40 feet long. It has weapons bays on either side of the single engine, each of which can probably carry a 1,000 kg weapon,

[Llarry]

The Secretary of the Navy has announced that the Constellation class missile frigate program is being cancelled. The first two ships, Constellation FFG 62 and Congress FFG 63, will be built but all others are cancelled.

The first ship is presently only 12% complete and the shipyard in Marinette Wisconsin, has had challenges in attracting an adequate workforce.

The missile frigates are projected to cost about $1.3 billion each, whereas the larger and more capable U.S. Navy's missile destroyers run about $2.7 billion each.

The Secretary has said that the Navy will explore options for a combatant smaller than the destroyers.

[Llarry]

Taiwan (the Republic of China) faces a large number of mainland Chinese submarines. The ROCN has only four boats -- two Dutch-built Zwaardis class boats from the 1980s and two antique U.S. World War II-built boats that are not good for much.

For years Taiwan has been looking for a solution for submarines and they finally decided to go it alone. The first (of 8 planned) locally-built boats is undergoing sea trials. Hai Kun (SSN-711) is based on the Dutch Zwaardis design but with upgrades, including lithium-ion main batteries.

[ezaircon4jc]

That looks like small boat.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

There has been some progress on the Navy/Marine program to build medium landing ships (LSMs). The details are not yet clear to me, but the Navy is pursuing two alternative designs:
1) An LSM based on the U.S. Army vehicle landing ship (LSV) and displacing about 2500 tons full load.
2) A Dutch company's tank landing ship (LST) of smaller size.

Hopefully these can be built at a reasonable cost.

The Navy has announced that the chosen design is the LST-100 design by Dutch firm Damen Shipbuilding. The ships will be built in the USA and hopefully changes will be minimal to retain low cost. Bollinger Shipyards on the Gulf Coast will build at the least the first few of the 18 to 35 LSMs to be built. The first will be the USS McClung (LSM 1), named after Marine Corps Major Megan McClung who was the first female Naval Academy graduate killed in action (by an IED during the Iraq War.)

[Llarry]

The U.S. Navy has announced that a new "small" surface combatant (frigate)-- to replace all but the first two Constellation-class missile frigates -- will be based on the Coast Guard's Legend-class cutter design.

Ten of the Legend-class are in service with an 11th under construction.

Modifications to the design for Navy service have not been disclosed. The price of the USCGCs is just over half of that for the Navy FFGs; it is likely that the new frigate will be considerably less capable than the cancelled FFGs.

[Llarry]

The Navy wants to get the new Coast Guard cutter-based frigates in the water quickly and plans minimal modifications to the USCG configuration. This will likely result in a ship with lesser capability -- but at lower cost. One of the notable shortcomings is no sonar of any type.

[JJ 911SC]

He probably will not be around by the time it gets commissioned.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC

He probably will not be around by the time it gets commissioned.

I think it will be commissioned long after he is gone.

Some specs:
Length: 840-880 feet
Beam: 105-110 feet
Displacement: Over 35,000 tons
Cost: US$10-15 billion each

[Llarry]

It is clear that North Korea is developing a submarine-launched ballistic missile with nuclear warhead on a high-priority basis. They have already launched a diesel-electric missile sub that has severe limitations. The gold standard is a nuclear-powered submarine like that possessed by the USA, the UK, France or Russia.

Over a year ago in December 2024 a Russian heavy lift cargo ship known to be an arms carrier -- The Ursa Major -- was in the Mediterranean when it was damaged and sank. The cause has not been definitively established but the word is that the engine room had a large (20-inch diameter) hole. The ship was carrying two large items covered with blue tarps that looked suspiciously like nuclear reactor hatches.

The destination of the Ursa Major remains a mystery, but it is possible that it was to deliver nuclear reactor components suitable for submarine use to North Korea. Another possibility is that it was delivering components to Vladivostok in the Russian Far East for use in a nuclear ice breaker.

I think it is a good bet that somebody did not want Ursa Major to arrive at its destination.

[Llarry]

Taiwan's Republic of China Navy is planning to build 10 light frigates to replace old ex-USN ships. The stated plan is for five ships to emphasize air defense and five to emphasize antisubmarine warfare. These will be ships of about 2,500 tons displacement -- about the size of a World War II destroyer but a quarter of the size of a current U.S. missile destroyer.

The hope is that the 10 ships would be completed in the 2028 to 2040 time frame.

All I can say is that the People's Republic of China currently has the world's largest Navy, although the U.S. outnumbers the PRC in some important ship categories such as aircraft carriers and nuclear-powered submarines. The PRC versus ROC match conjures up the image of a team of scrappy middle school footballers going up against the world champion professionals.

[smokinjoe64]

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC

He probably will not be around by the time it gets commissioned.

Oh that program will certainly get CANCELLED

[3798j]

On this day in 1958, the 'USS Wisconsin' (BB-64) was decommissioned; marking the first time in 62 years that the USN had no battleships in commission.

[Llarry]

The U.S. Navy is developing/buying Hammerhead antisubmarine mines on an urgent basis. The Hammerhead is an encapsulated torpedo which is anchored to the ocean floor. When it senses a submarine passing overhead, it fires the torpedo.

I remember a similar concept from decades past called the CAPTOR (encapsulated torpedo).

The photo is of the previous (and retired) CAPTOR.

[Henn28]

I bet the mighty Buff could lay a bunch of those in one pass.

[Llarry]

The Frence Navy is the only navy other that the U.S. to operate nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, although China has one under construction.

The cost to build such a ship is great, but France is determined to have two carriers so that one is available if the other is undergoing refueling or other complex shipyard work.

Last year France ordered construction of a second CVN and a name for the future ship was just announced: France Libre (R92) in honor of the French Resistance of World War II. While the existing French CVN, FS Charles de Gaulle (R91) is considerably smaller than U.S. carriers, the France Libre will be only slightly smaller than the American supercarriers -- it can be considered the first French supercarrier.

First two photos: FS Charles de Gaulle

Last photo: CGI of FS France Libre

The CDG air wing usually consists of two squadrons with 30 Rafale-M fighters, a couple of E-2D Hawkeye radar planes and helicopters. The France Libre wing should be considerably larger.

[Llarry]

The French Navy's FS Charles de Gaulle is less than 900 feet in length and has a full-load displacement of about 45,000 tons -- compare these numbers to the U.S. CVN figures of 1,000+ feet and about 100,000 tons -- and to the France Libre's length of about 1,000 feet and 80,000 tons.

The Indian Navy has a similarly sized aircraft carrier, the INS Vikrant (R11) that omits aircraft catapults in favor of a ski jump launch system similar to that of Russia and China. The Vikrant currently operates Russian-designed MiG-29K fighters, but India has ordered Dassault Rafale-Ms to replace these.

[Llarry]

While all details are tentative, the first Chinese PLA Navy CVN is well under construction. Estimates are that it will be slightly shorter that U.S. CVNs with a slightly broader flight deck. Here is a representation of the cross-section.

[Llarry]

A Korean KSS-III type submarine, the ROKS Dosan Ahn Changho (SS-083) is currently transiting the Pacific to visit Pacific Canada. The Korean-designed subs are contenders for an order (of up to 12 units) for the Royal Canadian Navy. The ROKN plans to buy 9 total boats of the class.

The only other contender is the German Type 212CD submarine that is currently on order for the German and Norwegian navies; no Type 212CD is yet operational and construction of the first boat started in 2023. The Deutsche Marine plans to have 6-9 submarines of the class, while Norway has ordered 6 total. The first Norwegian boat should be complete by 2029.

Both classes are among the most advanced submarines in the world.

The KSS-III boats feature propulsion using 3 Diesel engines, an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system using 4 fuel cells and lithium-ion batteries. They displace about 4,000 tons when submerged and feature six 533mm torpedo tubes plus six vertical-launch missile tubes.

The Type 212CD is based on the existing Type 212A design but will be nearly twice the size at 2,800 tons submerged. They will be fitted with two Diesel engines and a hydrogen fuel cell AIP system. Four 533mm torpedo will be fitted.

Both competitors have offered industrial partnerships to Canada as part of their bids, although I believe the submarines will not be Canadian built.

A decision by Canada is expected in 2026 with a goal of commissioning the first new boats in the mid-2030s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Patrol_Submarine

[Llarry]

In a lamentable sign of the difficulties faced by the U.S. industry to build and maintain warships -- particularly submarines -- the USS Boise (SSN 764), a Los Angeles class nuclear-powered attack submarine -- will be decommissioned.

The Boise's story is a sad one -- she was commissioned in 1992 and entered into the overhaul process in 2015. For over ten years Boise has been in overhaul or has been idle. US$800 million of taxpayer money has spent on her overhaul and yet the process is only 22 percent complete. The total overhaul cost, were it to continue, would be about US$3 billion! The Navy finally decided that it was simply not worth it.

62 Los Angeles class attack submarines were completed and 23 remain active.